Discuss your tips, tricks and experiences growing and selling vegetables, fruits, flowers, plants and herbs.
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#16 | ||
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
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![]() Weed control isn't an issue. In my system I have defined "weeds" as nothing more than beneficial companion plants. It is a POV thing. But to answer your question, suppression of the sod for long enough to grow a crop was excellent. Good enough to be a non issue completely. Quote:
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Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture |
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#17 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 165
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Best wishes for 2015... my new small plots were started using techniques that you (and others) have described here on T-Ville. I'm pleased and looking forward to this season.
Please keeps the pics and info flowing! -Jimmy |
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#18 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Abingdon, Va
Posts: 184
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I understand your struggles with poor soil to some extent -none of mine is excellent. My row garden (the 60x100) area was just clay sod(weeds) in 2012. It had been plowed once maybe twice for taters 10 years prior. I have never had a soil tested. I had a tractor till it and I used about 20 x 100 for 2 rows of raspberries. They don't require a particularly rich soil. The remaining 40x100, I bought a tiller and sowed and tilled in 3 crops of buckwheat that summer. I could have grown a veggie crop there but I thought would be more beneficial for focus on building soil value.
I understand the value of weeds, they do some invaluable things in a garden in their progression toward compost. I like to help them along in fact ;-) I would fall short of calling them beneficial companion plants. Beneficial plants, I agree 100%, they definitely are. But as companions I'm very picky. But I do tolerate some yarrow, mullien, evening primrose, clover,chickweed, heal-all. But ragweed, grasses, chuffa -not so much. My concern is that a vibrant weed crop seems to compete with a veggie crop and suppresses production to the extent that my time in the field might be better spent than squeezing a fair to poor crop from it. That could also be a POV, partly depending how you value your labor. There are more benefits that time can yield than money. But it's a balance I guess. But I had an advantage. I did not need to see a profit nor feed myself from it. I had another plot, where I was to end up building my raised beds, I tilled (with dolomite) and planted 3 dz tomatoes. Similar to you, I just mulched them at the base. But I had tilled in the sod. They did fair. We put up about 40qt and a maybe a dz pts of ketchup, fresh use, and a little give-away. |
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#19 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b
Posts: 1,302
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I don't see weeds as valuable either unless nitrogen fixers. They take 100% of nutrients from your soil, so you may break even composting them back, but you're not gaining anything. You're putting back what was already there.
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#20 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
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Now to be clear, this depends how the crop gets its plant nutrients. If you feed your plants with outside nutrients, (whether chemical ferts or manure) then yes, eliminate the weeds. But if you use biological processes for the bulk of the plants' nutrition, then no, as biodiverse as possible is best, because that creates soil.
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Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture |
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#21 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: selmer, tn
Posts: 2,944
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RedBaron many of us here have benefitted from your efforts knowledge and experiences. I hope that your season turns out well and all of us can benefit some more.
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#22 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Abingdon, Va
Posts: 184
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I just watched Gabe's video, Keys to Building a Healthy Soil. Thanks for recommending it. He has produced some amazing results over the past 20 years. And I'm sure he can speed that process up considerably (and we can too) with what he has learned. I considered no-tilling my last crop 2 cover crops last summer, but I was unclear on how to get the new seed into the soil through the cover residue. Of course, Gabe just hooks up a seed drill to the tractor.I need some instruction on that. Maybe I should trade in my Troy-Built tines for a seed drill. The remaining 40x100 I vacillate on leaving it for annual row crop or going ahead and putting it all in raspberries, currents, or something. I plan to move from the area in 5 years or so, maybe visiting every other weekend), but would like to try maintain at least my perennial plantings from a distance. So I will consider doing the chop n drop on the wheat and peas that are on it now, and leave the section the where I sowed diakon to maturity. I will put in 1-100' row of tomatoes, and maybe another 100' of raspberries. I liked Gabe's cover crop cocktails, so maybe the remaining area will be used for that.
I also have about 2 acres of grass on a hillside(steep) that I'd like to re-seed with honey bee-forage (and a few more fruit trees). Any suggestions? |
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#23 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
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Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; February 13, 2015 at 03:54 PM. |
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#24 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b
Posts: 1,302
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Last edited by drew51; February 13, 2015 at 12:41 PM. |
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#25 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
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It would be arrogance for me to argue with you about this. You are more likely to be right. You have the majority view after all. Mine is the unproven minority view. My experiments have been unexpectedly successful these last two years. I actually thought it would be harder and take longer, but who knows? The project could fall apart this year with a total crop failure. But no one will know till they make the attempt. One thing is certain, the current conventional model for agriculture is unsustainable and hugely destructive to the environment. Success has been made in making regenerative models of grain production and animal husbandry large scale commercial, whereas commercial vegetable production hasn't currently a regenerative model scaleable to large size. Gardeners can do it, but it falls apart at commercial scale. I am attempting to create that new scaleable model.
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Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; February 13, 2015 at 03:43 PM. |
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#26 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b
Posts: 1,302
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What some people fail to grasp is many cash crops are domesticated plants that would not survive on their own. Farming is not natural in anyway. Nothing like it occurs in nature.
if it were not for synthetic insecticides we would have millions starving. I agree we have to change this, but denying it's true doesn't make it go away. I see little difference between organic or synthetic. For example I will not use neem oil because it decreases predatory mite populations by decreasing egg production and these mites do more to remove other mites for me than any artificial product. I use science to garden, not organics. |
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#27 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
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Whose science? Biology? Life sciences?
Organic is science based. Different scientific foundation, but science none the less. In fact the father of organic agriculture was Sir Albert Howard, a formally trained, published and working agricultural scientist and lecturer.[1][2] (Alma mater University of Cambridge) This project is also science based. (see the multiple sources I have posted in the first two years) You are welcome to join the project if you wish, or you are free to abstain if you wish. As you please. All I ask is that this thread be used for the project's purposes. Please don't derail it with debate over irrelevant fallacies of logic. The definition of organic for the purposes of this project is: Quote:
Thank you.
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Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; February 13, 2015 at 05:00 PM. |
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#28 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Den of Drunken Fools
Posts: 38,539
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Scott have you considered planting buffalo grass?
After all it is the original grass of the great plains and is one heck of a turf builder. It takes little from the soil and helps tremendously. I would really like to see you try this stuff on a small scale. It only needs about 2 inches of water every 2 weeks and no fertilizer. I think it would be right down your alley. I have a small patch growing in decomposed granite of all places. And I don't water it so it will go dormant until the next rain. Due to this it will keep out unwanted weeds and other grasses. It is a natural for Oklahoma and Texas literally. I'm here to help not hinder. ![]() Worth |
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#29 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
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__________________
Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; February 14, 2015 at 08:47 AM. |
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#30 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
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Scott, I'm wondering what you're doing with the tomato plant biomass at the end of season?
I know I end up with a huge compost pile every year, to consume the nutrients locked up in those big plants and turn them back into soil. Great producers of biomass, for sure, but problematic to return it directly to the soil without a good hot composting to get rid of any diseased plant residues. If the plants themselves or an equivalent amount of compost weren't returned to the original bed, it would explain a lower return the second year, IMO, as the sheer mass of the tomato plants represents a large withdrawal of nutrients.... Just a thought. Congratulations on the beginning of year three! ![]() ![]() |
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