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Old June 9, 2016   #1
Blake_HTX
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Default F1+F1 questions

I am crossing a few of the varieties I have growing just for fun, but wondering about a couple of things. What I'm wanting to do is cross a few of the heirlooms I have with a Patio Princess hybrid. My goal is to make patio size crosses so I can grow them in my indoor grow tent.

So,

Question #1
Which donor would be the dominant trait? The pollen donor or the stigma/ovary donor? If it even works that way..

Question #2
I have seeds from a Patio Princess plant that I bought from the nursery. Since Patio Princess is a hybrid those seeds would be F2 correct?

Question #3
If I grow those F2 seeds and cross them with a different F2 or F1 that would create another F1? I saw in another thread that F1+F1(other)=F1 but F1+F1(same)=F2 (basically self-pollination).
Using those terms, my question would be: F2+F2(other)= F1? | F2+F1=F1 ? What if its Patio Princess F2 + Patio Princess F1?


I hope that makes sense.. LOL

I'm sure I'm wasting my time doing this, but it wouldn't be much of a learning experience if I just went out and bought some seeds now would it..?
So if you were going to comment anything of the sort you can save it

Any other tips, tricks and suggestions are welcome! THANKS
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Old June 9, 2016   #2
KC.Sun
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For the following:

Q1: dominant traits are really dependent on the individual plant regardless of which is stigma/ovary is used. For example, Craig in the dwarf tomato project uses a regular indeterminate to cross with a dwarf. His goal is to get a F1 indeterminate plant. That way he knows his cross is successful because dwarf trait is recessive.

Q2: since patio princess is a hybrid, assuming at f1 as many hybrids are, if it self pollinates, you have an f2. So that means that you don't need to treat it in any special manner except possibly bagging the blossoms so that another tomato cannot cross with your fruits. So seeds you save from the self pollinating blossoms are f2. Every year after if you let it self pollinate, it will be f3, f4,....

Q3: an f2 cross with another f1 cross would result in another f1. Denoted as (your f2) x (hybrid f1) = resulting f1 (another hybrid). You have a multi cross you will be working with.
...many dwarf tomato project varieties were found this way.
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Old June 9, 2016   #3
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#1: As a newbie myself, I am not sure. I'd recommend reading Carol Deppe's book about breeding vegetables. I am almost done reading it and I think I may just re-read it immediately so it all sinks in! From what I gathered, traits are either dominant or recessive, so dominant will dominate no matter which parent it comes from. I think.

#2: Correct. The seeds you saved from F1 fruits are now filial generation two, (F2).

#3: Yes, F2+F2 (other) = a new hybrid, filial generation one (F1). And yes, F2+F1=F1 (though if backcrossing a F1 with an F2 of the same variety that might be different, I am not sure)

Edit: KC and I must have been typing simultaneously
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Old June 9, 2016   #4
jmsieglaff
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This link is really useful for a basic genetic understanding. I'd recommend going there when you have some time to devote, I think you'll find it fun!

http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html
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Old June 9, 2016   #5
bower
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Hi Blake,

The Patio Princess is a determinate plant - the gene is called sp "self pruning" and it is a recessive trait. Although the Princess is a hybrid, it must be a cross between two determinate parents for the determinate trait to be expressed. So the hybrid is sp/sp.

When you cross it with an indeterminate, your F1 will all be sp/-, one sp allele and one 'wild type' or indeterminate, and they will all be indeterminate because that is dominant. Other traits might vary in the F1 plants, unless the Princess parents are really similar. When you grow out F2 seeds from that generation (selfed) the expected ratio is 1/4 determinates.

There are other traits in growth habit though that are not simply dominant or recessive, may be QTL's "quantitative trait loci" where effects are additive... I'm not sure. But some of your F2 determinates will likely have a larger growth habit with more leaves between fruit clusters than the Princess. You will need to grow 16 or more plants to get one F2 with the same 'patio' plant size.

I'm growing an F4 this year of a determinate/indeterminate cross, and still seeing differences in the growth habit of sibling plants in this generation.
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Old June 9, 2016   #6
Blake_HTX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC.Sun View Post
For the following:

Q1: dominant traits are really dependent on the individual plant regardless of which is stigma/ovary is used. For example, Craig in the dwarf tomato project uses a regular indeterminate to cross with a dwarf. His goal is to get a F1 indeterminate plant. That way he knows his cross is successful because dwarf trait is recessive.

Q2: since patio princess is a hybrid, assuming at f1 as many hybrids are, if it self pollinates, you have an f2. So that means that you don't need to treat it in any special manner except possibly bagging the blossoms so that another tomato cannot cross with your fruits. So seeds you save from the self pollinating blossoms are f2. Every year after if you let it self pollinate, it will be f3, f4,....

Q3: an f2 cross with another f1 cross would result in another f1. Denoted as (your f2) x (hybrid f1) = resulting f1 (another hybrid). You have a multi cross you will be working with.
...many dwarf tomato project varieties were found this way.


Ok cool. Its basically just a matter of trying until nature does what you want it to do. Lol

and thanks for the clarification on the F1 F2 stuff I think I understand it now
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Old June 9, 2016   #7
Blake_HTX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braybright View Post
#1: As a newbie myself, I am not sure. I'd recommend reading Carol Deppe's book about breeding vegetables. I am almost done reading it and I think I may just re-read it immediately so it all sinks in! From what I gathered, traits are either dominant or recessive, so dominant will dominate no matter which parent it comes from. I think.
Cool I'll check it out, I've been looking for new reading material
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Old June 9, 2016   #8
Blake_HTX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsieglaff View Post
This link is really useful for a basic genetic understanding. I'd recommend going there when you have some time to devote, I think you'll find it fun!

http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html
Thanks! I'll check it out
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Old June 9, 2016   #9
Blake_HTX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bower View Post
Hi Blake,

The Patio Princess is a determinate plant - the gene is called sp "self pruning" and it is a recessive trait. Although the Princess is a hybrid, it must be a cross between two determinate parents for the determinate trait to be expressed. So the hybrid is sp/sp.

When you cross it with an indeterminate, your F1 will all be sp/-, one sp allele and one 'wild type' or indeterminate, and they will all be indeterminate because that is dominant. Other traits might vary in the F1 plants, unless the Princess parents are really similar. When you grow out F2 seeds from that generation (selfed) the expected ratio is 1/4 determinates.

There are other traits in growth habit though that are not simply dominant or recessive, may be QTL's "quantitative trait loci" where effects are additive... I'm not sure. But some of your F2 determinates will likely have a larger growth habit with more leaves between fruit clusters than the Princess. You will need to grow 16 or more plants to get one F2 with the same 'patio' plant size.

I'm growing an F4 this year of a determinate/indeterminate cross, and still seeing differences in the growth habit of sibling plants in this generation.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for clearing that up
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Old June 10, 2016   #10
Darren Abbey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake_HTX View Post
Question #1
Which donor would be the dominant trait? The pollen donor or the stigma/ovary donor? If it even works that way..
Most traits don't depend on which parent they come from. Most. There are the occasional traits that are expressed differently depending on which parent they come from, due to genetic imprinting. I haven't heard of any specific traits with this characteristic in tomatoes, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake_HTX View Post
Question #2
I have seeds from a Patio Princess plant that I bought from the nursery. Since Patio Princess is a hybrid those seeds would be F2 correct?
If those seeds were produced from a selfing, then yes, F2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake_HTX View Post
Question #3
If I grow those F2 seeds and cross them with a different F2 or F1 that would create another F1? I saw in another thread that F1+F1(other)=F1 but F1+F1(same)=F2 (basically self-pollination).
Using those terms, my question would be: F2+F2(other)= F1? | F2+F1=F1 ? What if its Patio Princess F2 + Patio Princess F1?
The "F" in F1, etc., refers to "filial", meaning a generation successive to the parental generation in the experiment.

By convention, the parental generation is composed of two stable varieties (meaning they are highly inbred/homozygous). The first generation cross (F1) is then highly heterozygous, as well as highly consistent between individuals. The next generation (F2) is highly diverse due to genetic segregation. Each subsequent filial generation is produced by selfing (F2 -> F3 -> F4 ...), each generation will (on average) have about half the diversity (and heterozygosity) of the last.

If you cross a F1/F2/etc. from one experiment with a F1 from another experiment, you aren't starting with highly inbred parents, so you will have a lot of diversity in the resulting generation. You could refer to the resulting mix as F1s, but the "F" nomenclature doesn't really fit them very well. Orchid breeders coined the term "grex", meaning all the offspring from a cross of two [specific] hybrids, for exactly this scenario. The more heterozygous the parents of the grex are, the more diverse the grex will be.
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Old June 16, 2016   #11
crmauch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake_HTX View Post
Question #3
If I grow those F2 seeds and cross them with a different F2 or F1 that would create another F1? I saw in another thread that F1+F1(other)=F1 but F1+F1(same)=F2 (basically self-pollination).
Using those terms, my question would be: F2+F2(other)= F1? | F2+F1=F1 ? What if its Patio Princess F2 + Patio Princess F1?
Agree that F2 crossed with a different tomato would be an "F1" with the following "note":

Usually an F1 is created from two "purebreeding" lines (such as the Brandywine tomato for example (I.e. If you plant Brandywine year after year from seeds you save from each year, the succeeding plants will still be Brandywine[1]

When you cross two purebreeding lines, generally the resulting F1s are all "identical" So when you buy Sungold plants that have identical characteristics.

When you cross an F2 with something else, you will get an "F1", but the plants from that cross are unlikely to be identical and will show variation in the siblings.

A cross between and F2 and it's F1 forebear, I'm not sure what it would accomplish. The plants from that cross would be closer to the original F1, but you're now further from line stability.

Now crossing an F2, F3, F4, back to one of the purebreeding lines mentioned earlier, may serve a purpose, to recover certain characteristics/genes that could be lost in the outcross -- Let's say you have an 'ideal' paste tomato line, but you want it in a dwarf tomato. You cross the two and the first gen is not dwarf. You raise the F2s, and some of those are dwarf (since dwarf is recessive, you know those plants are purebreeding for that trait.) The fruit is still variable, and has some paste like characteristics, but is not that close to your 'ideal' line. You could just continue on the F3, F4, selecting for characteristics that bring it more in line with what you want, but since you really want your ideal paste, but dwarf, you can breed those dwarfs back to your ideal paste. IF you do this "backcrossing" and then selecting several generations, you can eventually create a plant that is essentially your "ideal", but dwarf.[2]

[1] You will still have "Brandywine" with the exception of possible circumstances of pollen contamination (from other tomato varieties) and genetic "drift"

[2] I know there is some attempts to do this with the American Chestnut (the characteristics of the American Chestnut with the fungal resistance/tolerance of the Chinese Chestnut.

**Sorry* didn't notice that Darren had ready noted this *

Last edited by crmauch; June 16, 2016 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Noting that posted duplicate infro
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