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Old December 16, 2016   #1
Dutch
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These are pictures of my F2 grow outs from Bower’s Beist-B1 selection. Beist is the working name of this cross which I believe was made with Black Early and Indian Stripe. Due to the infection I will not be passing any of these seeds on. I will be dividing the seeds into several groups and using different disinfection techniques on each group. Some seeds will not receive any treatment at all because I would like to study this infection.
The black spots on the leaves have no halo around them and the legions on the stems are easy to control with a sulfur spray. My hope, and know it is a long shot, is that it is a mutant ice-minus strain of Pseudomonas Syringae. When I think nature may be trying to show me something, I pay attention and try to understand the meaning of it.
The Beist plants were grown between Deep Space and Chernomor plants, which also developed the infection. The row started with three Deep Space plants, then two Beist plants, then three Chernomor plants. Brad’s Black Hearts were next to the Chernomor plants and the last to be infected in that row. No other plants in my garden appeared to be infected.
Dutch
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File Type: jpg Beist-B1_b.jpg (142.3 KB, 186 views)
File Type: jpg Beist-B1_c.jpg (153.3 KB, 187 views)
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Old December 16, 2016   #2
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Will someone please tell me the shape is improbable from that cross.
Dutch
P.S. Bower did you grow Zolotoe Serdtse anywhere near the plant you made your Beist-B1 selection from?
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Last edited by Dutch; December 16, 2016 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Old December 16, 2016   #3
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Hope you find the cure Dutch. The tomatoes are sure pretty though!
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Old December 16, 2016   #4
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I agree Jimbo, they sure are pretty. I am thankful beyond word that Bower sent me these seeds. I can hardly wait to see all the variation that come out of the next grow outs. It might be wild with many expressions to pursue; only time will tell. I get the feeling there may be some great varieties come out of this mix of tomato genes.
Bower, Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Dutch
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Old December 16, 2016   #5
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What was size of the tomatoes. I'm amazed at the wonderful shapes. You said variations was it the sizes colors taste or everything? I think Gerardo sent me one that gonna be pear shaped if I remember right. Now I gotta go look! Lol. Good luck Dutch.
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Old December 17, 2016   #6
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Jimbo I mean variations in many ways are probable. Check out Bowers "My breeding projects in 2015" in the "Crosstalk: Tomatoville Research and Development™" section. Look at post #17 on page 2. The two plants I grew had many variations of fruits with many elongated hearts, some with nippled ends and most appeared to have deep orange/gold under tones. I didn’t taste any of them because of the bacterial infection. I look forward to tasting the many variations I find next year. I consider these all Bower’s creations She retains all rights. I am only growing them out. I am glad to be able to do that.
Dutch
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Old December 17, 2016   #7
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Ok Dutch I must be having a good day because I read and understood the post on page two about the Beist project and what you guys are trying to accomplish with all the different and exciting possibilities and your own excitement in said project! I found myself being caught up in your enthusiasm and want so much for you and bower to find all the new possibilities this project will surely bring! I understand your thoughtfulness now on bringing forth a disease free plant that you can depend and not worry on future discoveries of these awesome tomatoes that will surely come about. A toast here to your success in in finding and stabilizing many great tasting and unusual fruits. Good great luck to you and Bower sir! Jimbo
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Old December 31, 2016   #8
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Hi Dutch! Happy new year!
I just happened to look in this subforum and saw your thread. Are you sure these are from Beist?Beist is as you said a cross of Black Early with Indian Stripe, and they are beef shaped for sure!

As regards the parentage of a possible cross, ZS was in the greenhouse but a cross with ZS should look distinctly orange at some stage (even half Beta will ripen through orange to red), and it cannot be black because it would need a black allele from the other parent (ZS has not). So if this is really the Beist seed, it looks to me that the shape must be from a cross with Deep Space... but if so, it would be pink-black as neither parent is a 'red-black' as looks to be in the picture.

Again, I question whether this seed could have come from the Beist line, as it would have to cross with a red-black pear or pointy shaped fruit.... Don't think there was anything present that would possibly produce that combination. Are those pictures of two different plants? The fruit are large and identical on both, so to my mind this is some other stable variety... Black Pepper?? looks like it perhaps? Black Pear? Or one called "Bedouin"? I haven't grown them, so just guessing on pics I've seen... but perhaps you had those in your seed stash and swapped them out by mistake? I know there's some shuffling of seed packets in my house around planting time.

Also very sorry to hear that these plants were diseased, and certainly hope it didn't come from my seeds! This is not a disease I have seen in my greenhouse, afaik.
The Beist I grew out this year wasn't crossed - it was a black beef, a little tastier than the B1-15 but wasn't as cold tolerant and had some K deficiency symptoms in response to compacted soil and/or crowded conditions. Typical mold issues at the end of season but nothing resembling the bacterial spot, for sure.
Dutch I hope you have better luck in 2017.
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Old December 31, 2016   #9
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Whatever it is, it`s definitely not your Beist Bower.

KarenO
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Old January 5, 2017   #10
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It looks very much like Deep Space(Black Pepper). Color and shape are consistent with it. Dutch, since it is right next to Deep Space, maybe you accidentally had a deep space plant there also? Close in the seed trays?
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Old January 5, 2017   #11
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Ginger, did you get red-blacks in Deep Space, or pink-blacks? I'm certain mine were pink-black. You're right about the shapes though, although none of mine were as pointy, the combination of ruffled/fluted with pear is definitely there. The pics of Black Pepper (which I haven't grown personally) also have those shape traits but more consistently pointy.

Overall these are 'paste' variety shapes, there's no genetics for that in Black Early x Indian Stripe.

This is what my Snickers = Deep Space looked like:
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File Type: jpg Snickers-smallplate.JPG (94.3 KB, 75 views)
File Type: jpg Snickers-sliced.JPG (113.8 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg Snickers-green.JPG (135.8 KB, 75 views)
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Old January 5, 2017   #12
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Hi Bower. I have seen pictures of it only. I haven't personally grown it.
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Old January 5, 2017   #13
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That’s probably it! My Beist and Deep Space labeling somehow got switched.

The first set of plants in that row were the shortest and the earliest. The fruits were black; dark red flatten globes. A few were well shaped globes but most were misshapes. In my garden they were labeled as Deep Space. These were probably the Beist plants.

The second set of plants were a little larger in size but still a compact plant. For their size, these plants were one of the most productive plants in my 2016 garden. The fruits were consistent in color all being black; deep dark orange/red. The shapes were all elongated. Most with a nippled bottom, some with pointed bottom and a few were almost pear shaped. In my garden they were labeled as Beist. These were probably the Deep Space plants.

Going forward I would like to grow out the second set of plants that were labeled as Beist and are probably Deep Space. I plan on segregating them by shape, and if these are indeed Deep Space tomato plants and if it is okay with Marina, append the end of the name (Deep Space) with something appropriate for each shape form.
Thanks for all the input and help!
Dutch
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The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein

I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries.

Last edited by Dutch; January 7, 2017 at 05:39 AM.
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Old January 5, 2017   #14
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Dutch I think that's a cool project to try and separate different shapes in Deep Space. IIRC, Marina said it was a seed that was labeled as something it was not, and produced these black pastes instead. So it wasn't known if it was stable or not, but some people got different shapes along the way. I know that the ones my friend grew here in the same summer had the same size and shapes as mine - flutey and bulgey and odd, but no real pointy tips like those beauts in your picture. Don't know how much environment affects, but shape genetics are anyhow really wierd... no simple rules like dominant/recessive alas!

As for Beist, they were for sure a compact plant and very early, so maybe a simple mislabel is the best explanation.

I am still really concerned about the disease on Deep Space, though, if those seeds also came from me. The plant had some stem issues for sure but looked like the usual grey mold or Alternaria not streaky or spotty ... I can say for certain there weren't spots like that on the leaves, as they are not like the usual stuff we get. Is it possible for a plant to carry bacterial spot/speck or whatever that is and not show it, and pass it on in the seeds? I would hate to think it, since I sent the seeds out to quite a few people.
Actually just looked at your pix again, and I am certain, I have never seen a stem lesion with a black border like that.

Last edited by bower; January 5, 2017 at 05:48 PM. Reason: added
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Old January 5, 2017   #15
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Hi Bower,
If this is a strain of P. Syringae, its typical mode of spreading is by its lash-like appendage, flagellum. Therefore they are usually spread by contact, plant to plant or animal to plant. They can hitch a ride on many things and have even been found in hail stones. This bacterial infection could have come from anywhere.
If this is the mutant “ice-minus” bacteria strain of P. Syringae, it lacks the ability to produce a certain surface protein, usually found on wild-type P. Syringae. The "ice-plus" protein (INA protein, "Ice nucleation-active" protein) found on the outer bacterial cell wall acts as the nucleating centers for ice crystals. This facilitates ice formation, hence the designation "ice-plus". The “ice-minus” variant of P. Syringae is a mutant, lacking the gene responsible for ice-nucleating surface protein production. This lack of surface protein provides a less favorable environment for ice formation. Frost damage occurs at a temperature lower than 32f/0c in a plant infected with the “ice-minus” bacteria strain of P. Syringae. Both strains of P. Syringae occur naturally. An “ice-minus” variant of P. Syringae was also produced through genetic engineering (removal of a gene) and was known as Frostban.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-minus_bacteria
Dutch
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The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein

I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries.

Last edited by Dutch; January 5, 2017 at 06:59 PM.
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