Plant management - Page 12

matereater · July 26, 2017

great lookin peppers mark !! I'm jealous

zipcode · July 26, 2017

Ok, thanks for the input guys.
I found in the meantime this interesting pdf: http://www.gpnmag.com/wp-content/upl...8%20Morgan.pdf.
It's about a recirculated system, where they just keep constant EC in the tank adding same formula, starting fruiting period. After 40 days they look at the ppm of each component, and quite surprisingly, the potassium needs were even higher than these formulas as well as magnesium.
Based on those observations a good fruiting formula would be like 2-1.5-6 + 2+1
So more epsom salts (about twice the amount) and more K (for example sulfate). For exact doses one would need to recalculate (to keep same EC).

Was trying to find a formula with the least possible residue for fruiting stage since I can't really have much waste (as in I don't have any way to collect it on my balcony in my rented apartment). But maybe that formula was localized to that specific variety and conditions, maybe too much K would inhibit that Ca absorption too much, maybe too much sulfate isn't good, etc. There must be a reason this formula seems most used, or maybe they don't care so much for a formula with least possible waste.
I'll see if I can try this next year if I find the necessary components.

AKmark · August 6, 2017

Here is a pic of my latest pepper haul, they already went to market. I use old tomato bags from last year, so I get a second use out of the soil, since tomatoes usually get new soil every year.

Rockporter · August 6, 2017

Wow, that's a nice haul.

greenthumbomaha · August 6, 2017

How many plants was that from, Mark? Not a single blemish. Mine are just starting to blush here too.

The last time I was at market the peppers weren't in yet. How much do peppers sell for at market in your area? We are in a low area for peppers but tomatoes are high.

- Lisa

AKmark · August 7, 2017

I have not counted the plants. Some were started later than others, some are varieties that don't yield that great, but are super tasty. My favorites bells out of about 30 I have tried is Big Bertha, and Revolution. Both yield good, both have large peppers, BB is thin walled, Revolution very thick walls. No other varieties I have tried comes close in production. If you guys have grown these, and know of one that yields better I am all ears.
As I get better at managing the plants I think I can get 50 peppers per plant, my worst problem is the branches break off, so I am going to start pruning them to three or four branches and clip them up just like tomatoes. Aphids are another problem, but I have that under control with lady bugs and parasitic wasps. I usually throw them outside and the aphids get wiped out in a couple of weeks, but they grow better in the GH, so I need to perfect the environment.

zipcode · August 7, 2017

That does look great. What's the weight of one of those?
For me bell peppers ripen insanely slow, and they're no good tasting unless ripe, so I gave up on them. I prefer the ones that go through a light cream stage, they can be picked much earlier (mature or almost mature, but not ripe) and the flavour is fantastic for cooking as well as eating raw. You should give them a try. Romanian Rainbow is one of this kind, but in general they are the default eating pepper in the more eastern europe from Hungary to Turkey, but I also see them imported from morocco in the winter, many hybrids in this format too. You should give them a try, to diversify your pepper offer.

matereater · August 7, 2017

"As I get better at managing the plants I think I can get 50 peppers per plant"

WOW!! I'm obviously doing something wrong, I'm lucky if I get 6-8.

Nematode · August 18, 2017

Ec 2.0 for me resulting in low flavor from first fruits, some signs of K def, blotchy ripening. Fruit set definitely improved after dropping heavy KNO3 feed.
Upping the feed to 2.2, and may add small percentage KNO3 for K and a little (35ppm) NaCl for flavor. Hopefully not too late, not much season left.
No BER this year with CaCl added to mix.

JRinPA · August 18, 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipcode

That does look great. What's the weight of one of those?
For me bell peppers ripen insanely slow, and they're no good tasting unless ripe, so I gave up on them. I prefer the ones that go through a light cream stage, they can be picked much earlier (mature or almost mature, but not ripe) and the flavour is fantastic for cooking as well as eating raw. You should give them a try. Romanian Rainbow is one of this kind, but in general they are the default eating pepper in the more eastern europe from Hungary to Turkey, but I also see them imported from morocco in the winter, many hybrids in this format too. You should give them a try, to diversify your pepper offer.

Antohi Romani is one such pepper. I picked up from Johnny's on clearance a couple years back. They do develop flavor sooner, but are smaller than most bell peppers. I like them. They may have been an F1, but I saved seed and they look similar this year. I have no idea the production value in containers.

AKmark · August 18, 2017

Nematode, if you have not read this before, this link has some studies linked here that you can find and read about flavor.
http://ucanr.edu/sites/nm/files/76647.pdf

Sadly a K deficient plant that results in blotch ripening, greywall, or yellow shoulder is a serious issue. I have found that any fruit that has set will be affected, they have to go through a complete cycle after the nutrient deficiency has been corrected.
Good luck

BigVanVader · August 18, 2017

Mark I was reading this and thought of you. Not sure how it applies being your in Alaska but may be useful.

http://www.caes.uga.edu/newswire/sto...l?storyid=4416

zipcode · August 19, 2017

I was reading once a study about uneven ripening and they were saying about K:N ratio, so I would think that if one wants to correct it, you should use something that doesn't introduce anymore N, so instead of KNO3 use K3PO4 (if you can find it, if not one of the ones with more P, or maybe sulfate).
I don't think K is the only thing responsible though, I have seen in someone's garden fruit with really bad hard green or yellow shoulders (beyond the variety thing) and they tasted really good. K deficient fruit is unlikely to be so tasty, at least according to quite a few studies. Gray wall however, they always taste horrible, like grass (actual grass), so I'm thinking not all these symptoms have the exact same cause.

Nematode · August 19, 2017

Some minor gray patches internal on some fruits. Not sure if it qualifies as gray wall but its not good.
Doesn't make sense to have this trouble at recommended feed rates. In the past(high ec feeds) I had some problem with ber, but never flavor. I am beginning to think if you are not getting a little tip burn flavor is not at its best possible.
After having done yet another literature survey, I will go back to adding salt and potassium nitrate at high EC for flavor. Haifa and Yara literature indicate that salt and kno3 balance each other to avoid serious nutrient imbalance, and I have used this in the past, but not really sure of the exact ratio required.
Using salt to raise EC is similar to dry farming, it raises the osmotic pressure making the roots work harder to take up moisture. This will depress yield, but a good trade for flavor. Salt is toxic to many plants, but tomato is not sensitive.
Now to look at old notes and come up with an internediate formula.
Trading yield for flavor is a no brainer, its all about flavor over here.

Beans and melons are gonna hate me.

Nematode · August 19, 2017

oz/100 gal

Magnesium Sulfate 5.4
Yara Calcium Nitrate 9
Calcium Chloride 1.6
Potassium Nitrate 6.3 (5.9)
CHEM-GRO TOMATO 6.6
Sea 90 SEA SALT 6 (3.0)

EC should run 3.2ish (2.7ish) 0.2 from base water 1.0 (0.5)from salt, 2.0 from nutes.
This isn't really high enough to depress tomato yield according to available papers. Beans will be sad though.

I have run similar less salty formula before, without the cacl and had early season ber but good flavor.

Interesting tomato irrigation paper with saline level from ec 0.9 to 5.5
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4634986/
Table 2 and 5 are interesting from a flavor perspective, with up to 40% improvement in some of the flavor proxy metrics..

In hydroponics starting with ec 1.0 from salt can end with a much higher ec in the root zone as other nutrients and water are taken up, leaving less water and virtually all the salt. So I will cut salt in half from above measures, and increase feed volume slightly. If I get ambitious, might even measure runoff EC. New numbers in () now you know why there were 2 sets of numbers.

off to the mixing lab....

July 26, 2017	#166
matereater Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: S.E. Michigan (Livonia) Posts: 1,264	great lookin peppers mark !! I'm jealous __________________ Steve Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult

August 6, 2017	#169
Rockporter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Texas Coastal Bend Posts: 3,205	Wow, that's a nice haul. __________________ In the spring at the end of the day you should smell like dirt ~Margaret Atwood~

August 7, 2017	#173
matereater Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: S.E. Michigan (Livonia) Posts: 1,264	"As I get better at managing the plants I think I can get 50 peppers per plant" WOW!! I'm obviously doing something wrong, I'm lucky if I get 6-8. __________________ Steve Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult

July 26, 2017	#167
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	Ok, thanks for the input guys. I found in the meantime this interesting pdf: http://www.gpnmag.com/wp-content/upl...8%20Morgan.pdf. It's about a recirculated system, where they just keep constant EC in the tank adding same formula, starting fruiting period. After 40 days they look at the ppm of each component, and quite surprisingly, the potassium needs were even higher than these formulas as well as magnesium. Based on those observations a good fruiting formula would be like 2-1.5-6 + 2+1 So more epsom salts (about twice the amount) and more K (for example sulfate). For exact doses one would need to recalculate (to keep same EC). Was trying to find a formula with the least possible residue for fruiting stage since I can't really have much waste (as in I don't have any way to collect it on my balcony in my rented apartment). But maybe that formula was localized to that specific variety and conditions, maybe too much K would inhibit that Ca absorption too much, maybe too much sulfate isn't good, etc. There must be a reason this formula seems most used, or maybe they don't care so much for a formula with least possible waste. I'll see if I can try this next year if I find the necessary components.

August 6, 2017	#170
greenthumbomaha Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Omaha Zone 5 Posts: 2,514	How many plants was that from, Mark? Not a single blemish. Mine are just starting to blush here too. The last time I was at market the peppers weren't in yet. How much do peppers sell for at market in your area? We are in a low area for peppers but tomatoes are high. - Lisa

August 7, 2017	#171
AKmark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Wasilla Alaska Posts: 2,010	I have not counted the plants. Some were started later than others, some are varieties that don't yield that great, but are super tasty. My favorites bells out of about 30 I have tried is Big Bertha, and Revolution. Both yield good, both have large peppers, BB is thin walled, Revolution very thick walls. No other varieties I have tried comes close in production. If you guys have grown these, and know of one that yields better I am all ears. As I get better at managing the plants I think I can get 50 peppers per plant, my worst problem is the branches break off, so I am going to start pruning them to three or four branches and clip them up just like tomatoes. Aphids are another problem, but I have that under control with lady bugs and parasitic wasps. I usually throw them outside and the aphids get wiped out in a couple of weeks, but they grow better in the GH, so I need to perfect the environment.

August 7, 2017	#172
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	That does look great. What's the weight of one of those? For me bell peppers ripen insanely slow, and they're no good tasting unless ripe, so I gave up on them. I prefer the ones that go through a light cream stage, they can be picked much earlier (mature or almost mature, but not ripe) and the flavour is fantastic for cooking as well as eating raw. You should give them a try. Romanian Rainbow is one of this kind, but in general they are the default eating pepper in the more eastern europe from Hungary to Turkey, but I also see them imported from morocco in the winter, many hybrids in this format too. You should give them a try, to diversify your pepper offer.

August 18, 2017	#174
Nematode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: massachusetts Posts: 1,710	Ec 2.0 for me resulting in low flavor from first fruits, some signs of K def, blotchy ripening. Fruit set definitely improved after dropping heavy KNO3 feed. Upping the feed to 2.2, and may add small percentage KNO3 for K and a little (35ppm) NaCl for flavor. Hopefully not too late, not much season left. No BER this year with CaCl added to mix.

August 18, 2017	#176
AKmark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Wasilla Alaska Posts: 2,010	Nematode, if you have not read this before, this link has some studies linked here that you can find and read about flavor. http://ucanr.edu/sites/nm/files/76647.pdf Sadly a K deficient plant that results in blotch ripening, greywall, or yellow shoulder is a serious issue. I have found that any fruit that has set will be affected, they have to go through a complete cycle after the nutrient deficiency has been corrected. Good luck

August 18, 2017	#177
BigVanVader Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Greenville, South Carolina Posts: 3,099	Mark I was reading this and thought of you. Not sure how it applies being your in Alaska but may be useful. http://www.caes.uga.edu/newswire/sto...l?storyid=4416

August 19, 2017	#178
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	I was reading once a study about uneven ripening and they were saying about K:N ratio, so I would think that if one wants to correct it, you should use something that doesn't introduce anymore N, so instead of KNO3 use K3PO4 (if you can find it, if not one of the ones with more P, or maybe sulfate). I don't think K is the only thing responsible though, I have seen in someone's garden fruit with really bad hard green or yellow shoulders (beyond the variety thing) and they tasted really good. K deficient fruit is unlikely to be so tasty, at least according to quite a few studies. Gray wall however, they always taste horrible, like grass (actual grass), so I'm thinking not all these symptoms have the exact same cause.

August 19, 2017	#179
Nematode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: massachusetts Posts: 1,710	Some minor gray patches internal on some fruits. Not sure if it qualifies as gray wall but its not good. Doesn't make sense to have this trouble at recommended feed rates. In the past(high ec feeds) I had some problem with ber, but never flavor. I am beginning to think if you are not getting a little tip burn flavor is not at its best possible. After having done yet another literature survey, I will go back to adding salt and potassium nitrate at high EC for flavor. Haifa and Yara literature indicate that salt and kno3 balance each other to avoid serious nutrient imbalance, and I have used this in the past, but not really sure of the exact ratio required. Using salt to raise EC is similar to dry farming, it raises the osmotic pressure making the roots work harder to take up moisture. This will depress yield, but a good trade for flavor. Salt is toxic to many plants, but tomato is not sensitive. Now to look at old notes and come up with an internediate formula. Trading yield for flavor is a no brainer, its all about flavor over here. Beans and melons are gonna hate me.

August 19, 2017	#180
Nematode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: massachusetts Posts: 1,710	oz/100 gal Magnesium Sulfate 5.4 Yara Calcium Nitrate 9 Calcium Chloride 1.6 Potassium Nitrate 6.3 (5.9) CHEM-GRO TOMATO 6.6 Sea 90 SEA SALT 6 (3.0) EC should run 3.2ish (2.7ish) 0.2 from base water 1.0 (0.5)from salt, 2.0 from nutes. This isn't really high enough to depress tomato yield according to available papers. Beans will be sad though. I have run similar less salty formula before, without the cacl and had early season ber but good flavor. Interesting tomato irrigation paper with saline level from ec 0.9 to 5.5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4634986/ Table 2 and 5 are interesting from a flavor perspective, with up to 40% improvement in some of the flavor proxy metrics.. In hydroponics starting with ec 1.0 from salt can end with a much higher ec in the root zone as other nutrients and water are taken up, leaving less water and virtually all the salt. So I will cut salt in half from above measures, and increase feed volume slightly. If I get ambitious, might even measure runoff EC. New numbers in () now you know why there were 2 sets of numbers. off to the mixing lab....