Micro-tomato crosses

[BlackBear]

I just scanned through the thread to keep sort of up to date on this

Wow !

I am very interested in the "1 gallon " mini quest and the " 2 gallon " miniature quest as I believe there are interesting possibilities to come .
Just wondering if the crosses produce a plant that is 24 " yet still had
some out standing traits ....would this not be still an interesting development ?

I understand Micro dwarf is the prime Vision ..but is it really like nobody over 14 " need apply ?

What I mean is.... if you are aiming for the micro dwarf and end up with some that are bigger than micro dwarf ...yet much smaller than the dwarf project releases .......I think that would be MOST interesting . Especially if to kick up a size notch to the " 2 + gallon " Quest ... ( still useful ...even if developed incidentally )

I do not know how one picks a place to start in the cross of varieties ......


but just reading this thread gets me thinking of all the compacts and dwarfs out there to try to cross into micro/ smaller varieties including the

"Grumpy " line of the dwarf project ...Yukon Quest , Iditarod red, Sleeping lady etc.

Compact ...Sophie's choice , Mano , Yaponski karlik , Andrina , Cyril's Choice , Yellow Pygmy , Venus etc. Rejina red and Yellow etc.


anyway wow what a great Thread and Great work !

[ChrisK]

I will definitely take a 24" tomato with outstanding traits (i.e. flavor!) no question! In fact, I have a couple of segregates of the multiflora that appear to be intermediate in stature between the micro and a dwarf that would probably do well in a 2 gal. pot. Several other crosses (not detailed here) are also giving me intermediate sized plants.


Like this little one:






Part of the problem is growout space, as you can imagine, even with micros!

Originally Posted by BlackBear

I just scanned through the thread to keep sort of up to date on this

Wow !

I am very interested in the "1 gallon " mini quest and the " 2 gallon " miniature quest as I believe there are interesting possibilities to come .
Just wondering if the crosses produce a plant that is 24 " yet still had
some out standing traits ....would this not be still an interesting development ?

I understand Micro dwarf is the prime Vision ..but is it really like nobody over 14 " need apply ?

What I mean is.... if you are aiming for the micro dwarf and end up with some that are bigger than micro dwarf ...yet much smaller than the dwarf project releases .......I think that would be MOST interesting . Especially if to kick up a size notch to the " 2 + gallon " Quest ... ( still useful ...even if developed incidentally )

I do not know how one picks a place to start in the cross of varieties ......


but just reading this thread gets me thinking of all the compacts and dwarfs out there to try to cross into micro/ smaller varieties including the

"Grumpy " line of the dwarf project ...Yukon Quest , Iditarod red, Sleeping lady etc.

Compact ...Sophie's choice , Mano , Yaponski karlik , Andrina , Cyril's Choice , Yellow Pygmy , Venus etc. Rejina red and Yellow etc.


anyway wow what a great Thread and Great work !

[BlackBear]

oooh ahhhhh !

2 gallon abundance !

[ChrisK]

Unfortunately, none of the fruit is very good. Quite tasteless in fact in all these F3 segregants, micro and dwarf.

[maf]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Unfortunately, none of the fruit is very good. Quite tasteless in fact in all these F3 segregants, micro and dwarf.

The foliage to fruit ratio flavor relationship will be hard to overcome in a multi-micro.

[ChrisK]

I'd be interested in any studies that look at this ratio. I suspect flavor will be much more complex than that.

Originally Posted by maf

The foliage to fruit ratio flavor relationship will be hard to overcome in a multi-micro.

[maf]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

I'd be interested in any studies that look at this ratio. I suspect flavor will be much more complex than that.

Yes, flavor is more complex, but... think of the leaves as like solar panels; they are harvesting the energy of the sun to convert carbon and nutrients into sugars and other flavor compounds. The more you put in the more you get out. So a large solar array is, all other things being equal, going to produce more sugars and flavor compounds than a small one.

This is also why indeterminates generally are considered to be better flavored than determinates.

Sorry, I don't know any studies on this off the top of my head.

[ChrisK]

I hear you and understand photosynthesis. We've also had a very wet year and it's known that environment plays a huge role in flavor. Dan has also found some sweet micros from what I recall which will have an even greater fruit:foliage ratio though.

A couple of other ideas spring to mind. d based dwarfs being compact, both internode length and leaves, could have significant intra-plant shading as well as reduced overall foliage. These plants are very dense. A shaded leaf is not photosynthesizing and could even be a sink rather than a source.

Would br based dwarfs be better as has been suggested to me?

[Lee]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

We've also had a very wet year and it's known that environment plays a huge role in flavor.

Everyone of my varieties, dwarf and indeterminate, has been pretty tasteless this year. They all have that watered down flavor and I've had to resort to making sauce out of all of them to keep from just tossing them all out.

Actually, the sungolds have been pretty good. You know it's been a bad year when Big Beef, Cherokee Purple, and even Cuostralee taste poor......

Lee

[ChrisK]

Same here. We have about 8 gallons of sauce here so far in the freezer.

But on a positive note, we're only 7.5 months away from 2016 seed starting time!

Originally Posted by Lee

Everyone of my varieties, dwarf and indeterminate, has been pretty tasteless this year. They all have that watered down flavor and I've had to resort to making sauce out of all of them to keep from just tossing them all out.

Actually, the sungolds have been pretty good. You know it's been a bad year when Big Beef, Cherokee Purple, and even Cuostralee taste poor......

Lee

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

.... Dan has also found some sweet micros from what I recall which will have an even greater fruit:foliage ratio though.

A couple of other ideas spring to mind. d based dwarfs being compact, both internode length and leaves, could have significant intra-plant shading as well as reduced overall foliage. These plants are very dense. A shaded leaf is not photosynthesizing and could even be a sink rather than a source.

Would br based dwarfs be better as has been suggested to me?

One good thing about the micros - you can grow a bunch in not a lot of space. I have 20+ F4s growing from best F3 of my winter grow-out. I'm tasting them as they ripen and doing a brix test on those that that I really like. The brix tests are mostly in the 6-7.5 range. One tested 4.8 (tasted terrible) and one tested 9.2 and another 10.0 (they were both exceptional tasting). Those two high brix fruits were from two of the most heavily fruited of all (highest fruit:foliage ratio). Interestingly, they were both growing in one-gallon pots in a soiless mix.

I have definitely identified two that I will carry forward as F5s - hoping to find more.

Wish I knew more about the genes, alleles and other forces driving these things....

[nctomatoman]

That's amazing, Lee - our tomatoes are the best tasting we've had in years - even the ones I expected blandness from are very good. Some of the dwarfs are hitting 9s.

Just shows you variation - yet I am watering twice per day. So, so many factors involved - which makes it fun (or frustrating, I guess!).

Picked some 1.5 lb JD and Indian Stripe and Morty (Mortgage Lifter X Summer Sunrise F1) today!

[ChrisK]

need pictures of those F4s!!

Also hoping Heirloomtomaguy has an update on his sungold cross! I think a few others have not weighed in on their results too.

I have got several more F1's growing right now for micro selection in the next season, including a couple with antho genes. Will be saving as much seed as I can, these plants are squirrel protection priority.

Originally Posted by dfollett

One good thing about the micros - you can grow a bunch in not a lot of space. I have 20+ F4s growing from best F3 of my winter grow-out. I'm tasting them as they ripen and doing a brix test on those that that I really like. The brix tests are mostly in the 6-7.5 range. One tested 4.8 (tasted terrible) and one tested 9.2 and another 10.0 (they were both exceptional tasting). Those two high brix fruits were from two of the most heavily fruited of all (highest fruit:foliage ratio). Interestingly, they were both growing in one-gallon pots in a soiless mix.

I have definitely identified two that I will carry forward as F5s - hoping to find more.

Wish I knew more about the genes, alleles and other forces driving these things....

[AdrianaG]

Put me in coach! I'd love to trial some micros starting seeds ASAP, growing them outdoors until late fall then moving them indoors. First frost here in N Ga is early to mid-November.

A neighbor of mine adores Sungolds and missed out on buying plants this summer, she would be thrilled for a micro that fills in that empty spot in her life. (I personally find them too sweet, prefer an acidic Green Zebra bite in my tomatoes). But I'll grow anything for the sake of science and just plain cuteness!

[AdrianaG]

F5, here we go! Thank you Dan Follett for hooking me up with MMF-8 and MMF-10 seeds.

Sowing date - 10/6/15
Seed starting system - Promix on capillary mat, LED light, heat mat (garage)
Grow-out system planned - Earth Box with fluorescent (in house)

Does anybody have experience with Micros in Earthboxes? My plan is put 3 plants per Earth a box (2 in back, 1 centered in front. I do not plan to use the EB fertilizer system, but rather willincorporate Happy Frog tomato fertilizer as if they were potted plants. Thoughts?