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Old June 29, 2013   #1
thefluffybunny
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Default Amana Orange = Golden Ponderosa?

I was wondering if anyone has grown both Amana Orange and Golden Ponderosa and as a result think they are the same plant.

Ever curious...
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Old June 29, 2013   #2
carolyn137
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I was wondering if anyone has grown both Amana Orange and Golden Ponderosa and as a result think they are the same plant.

Ever curious...
Yes, I've grown both and if you look at the links below you'll see that they are not the same variety.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Amana_Orange

it was first introduced in 1985 and see the reason it was named Amana Orange.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...lden_Ponderosa

Again, note the date and why it was named Golden Ponderosa.

Most of my tomato friends have moved on from Amana Orange to Kellogg's Breakfast and its PL variant and very few grow Golden Ponderosa these days.

All to say is that there are many look alikes around that one could compare with the two you mention, but the two you mention are not the same variety.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn
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Old June 29, 2013   #3
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Carolyn, thank you for the reply.

This is fascinating. I think a lot of these question might emerge from seed mix-ups and renaming.

So here is the story. When I was young I was the gardener in our immediate family, no one else had the interest. As a child I was not a tomato fan, they were just too strong tasting to me. But then my uncle who was a gardener and a half had me try an orange one and I was hooked. Now I was a young boy, so this would be back around 1971. Anyways I managed to finagle a handful of seeds and he told me as long as that was all I grew they would always come true to seed. So that is what I grew never knowing the name. Obviously over time my horizons expanded and I grew to love Pinks, Reds, and Black but I kept that variety going up until 1994 when my home was burned to the ground and I lost all my seed stock.

So after that it a long arduous trial and error process of trying to find out what variety it was. One thing I learned is not every company is selling seed that is true to name (and you have documented several reasons) For instance I got Kelloggs from Pine Tree and it was bland, insipid, and there was simply no way it could be the famous Kelloggs. So my next purchase (in desperation) was KBX, on the hope that even though I knew it was not the tomato I was looking for (potato leaf vs regular) it should taste enough like true Kelloggs to indicate is it might have been Kelloggs) The logic being it KBX was likely closer to Kelloggs in taste than a lot of the Kelloggs seed was that is in circulation.

Anyways KBX was a good tasting tomato but not what I was looking for tastewise. And I came to the realization I needed to find a better seed source (hence Tatiana’s as she grows things out herself) and would probably need to go back over varieties I initially crossed off simply because they might not be true to name. Of course Tatiana’s database suffers from one fatal flaw which of course is it is susceptible to GIGO. Someone could have mixed up seeds decades ago and what we now call XYZ may have been yesterday’s ABC. Craig LeHoullier has theorized this in regard to Sudduth’s Brandywine and Red Bradywine.

Anyways, I was getting desperate. And I was in the seed store last year and I noticed a variety offered by Livingstoen seed called Amana Orange so I picked up the seeds, hit Tatiana’s database and thought well there is no way this is it based on the information provided. But what the heck I figured it might still be a good tomato and so I grew out one plant. And I was shocked. That was really close to it – really. Now last year was a pain for tomatoes, a massive drought and very high heat and this one produced like a champ. Now I am aware that drought often effects the taste of tomatoes in a positive way and it could be that the water restriction had elevated the taste of this strain over its standard, but it was darn close to what I was looking for given it had been 18 years since I last tasted it. That sounds good but the trouble is I was eating this back in 1971 or 1972, so before Amana was supposedly introduced.

So I did some research and checked with the posting s of a grower named Dillard Haley who posts in forums as Farmer Dill.
Reference: http://blogs.cornell.edu/garden/get-...veg-varieties/


And I noticed he indicated he grew Golden Ponderosa and Amana Orange side by side and could not tell them apart.
Re:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++
Reviewed on 05/30/2006 by farmerdill - An experienced gardener
[IMG]file:///C:\Users\IBM_AD~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\c lip_image001.gif[/IMG]Overall
[IMG]file:///C:\Users\IBM_AD~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\c lip_image001.gif[/IMG]Taste
[IMG]file:///C:\Users\IBM_AD~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\c lip_image001.gif[/IMG]Yield
[IMG]file:///C:\Users\IBM_AD~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\c lip_image001.gif[/IMG]Ease
Richmond, Georgia, United States
Frost Free Season: 183 - 203 days
Soil Texture: Sand
Garden Size: Large - More than 1,600 square feet (40' x 40')
Sun Exposure: More than 8 hours per day
This cultivar has been a reliable performer for me. However I have grown them side by side in the field with Golden Ponderosa and I can't distinguish between them. They are both good dark yellow beefsteaks and could very well be a renamed cultivar.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++

Reference: http://vegvariety.cce.cornell.edu/ma...931&filterBy=0

A bit more digging indicated he had been growing Golden Ponderosa for 60+ years and was familiar with all the Henderson varieties. And he is aware of several name changes in that line (Henderson Ponderosa genre).

So, that is why I made the inquiry about Amana Orange and Golden Ponderosa. It would solve the mystery as to why Amana Orange tasted so much like a cultivar available in the early 70s (by the way since I got it from my Uncle and he got it from a family seed store that was established in 1946 and only went into new varieties with corn and soybean) and it was probably an older cultivar in 1970s.

Of course there are several other possibilities including that the seed I had was a mix up in the first place and is not Amana Orange.

But then we are left with the contention by Dillard Haley that they may be the same cultivar under different names.

The other thing, I have a fairly refined pallet. The KBX I grew the last two years (and this year) was not nearly as flavorful as the Amana Orange though certainly a pleasant enough tomato I am growing it again this year (along with Amana). So I find it interesting that people moved away from Golden Ponderosa to KBX.

Thoughts?
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Old June 29, 2013   #4
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Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
Yes, I've grown both and if you look at the links below you'll see that they are not the same variety.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Amana_Orange

it was first introduced in 1985 and see the reason it was named Amana Orange.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...lden_Ponderosa

Again, note the date and why it was named Golden Ponderosa.

Most of my tomato friends have moved on from Amana Orange to Kellogg's Breakfast and its PL variant and very few grow Golden Ponderosa these days.

All to say is that there are many look alikes around that one could compare with the two you mention, but the two you mention are not the same variety.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn
It is very helpful and interesting given you have grown out both. Thank you....
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Old June 29, 2013   #5
carolyn137
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I know Dill very well and have for many years since he reads and sometimes post at a message site where I do.

I was the source to Pinetree of KB and I doubt the seeds were wrong, but for sure grown in different years in different places there could be different performance and different taste.

I don't know know why Dill would say that there were different names released by the Henderson Seed Co unless he was referring to Wins All, which was a selection from Ponderosa and there was a naming contest and Wins All was the winning name which is why it was named Wins All.

As I said above there are many look alikes but finding the one from the 70's that you knew I do think will be impossible to find.

I have all of the SSE YEarbooks from 1975 onward, but I don't think that will help since what was grown back then was not always known and recorded, if you know what I mean.

Craig LeHoullier is my best friend for over 24 years now and I don't remember him saying anything about the Brandywine ( Sudduth/Quisenberry) or Red Bandywine that was contenious.

There are plenty of threads here at Tville about the three Brandywine heirlooms of pink, red and Yellow ( actually gold)

I don't know if that helps, but I'm trying.

Carolyn
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Old June 30, 2013   #6
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I was the source to Pinetree of KB and I doubt the seeds were wrong, but for sure grown in different years in different places there could be different performance and different taste.
Definitely. I find this all the time with apples. A variety grown in one area can taste remarkably different just 12-25 miles away.

Quote:
I don't know know why Dill would say that there were different names released by the Henderson Seed Co unless he was referring to Wins All, which was a selection from Ponderosa and there was a naming contest and Wins All was the winning name which is why it was named Wins All.
I suspect I inadvertently misled you. He indicated that several of the Henderson Ponderosa’s went under various names over time. Below are a couple examples:

Ponderosa , Tomatoes
Reviewed on 05/28/2006 by farmerdill - An experienced gardener

This ancient Henderson cultivar (Purple Ponderosa in my youth) has long been a standard for table use. It grows large, has excellent flavor and is very reliable for an OP. IT is however a very rough tomato, with catfacing and convoluted shapes the order of the day. A very Ugly tomato.

and...

Beefsteak , Tomatoes
Reviewed on 05/30/2006 by farmerdill - An experienced gardener

This is the same tomato as the Henderson's Red Ponderosa. Over the years it has been vended as the Scarlet Ponderosa, Crimson Cushion and during the 40's and 50's simply as the Beefsteak. It is a good performer, tends to catfacing more than the more modern cultivars. Delicious is a Burpee selected strain of this cultivar and is a much prettier tomato, both smoother and larger.

So looking at Dill’s posts above you can see the same cultivars went under various names over time which is what I was trying to convey i.e. Beefsteak = Henderson's red Ponderosa = Scarlet Ponderosa = Crimson Cushion.

The thing I noticed was Dill also wrote:

Golden Ponderosa , Tomatoes
Reviewed on 05/28/2006 by farmerdill - An experienced gardener


One of my favorite yellow beefsteaks for 60+ years. It grows well here as well as every other place that I have tried it. Good size, good flavor, some catfacing, but less than other Ponderosas.

So now you understand why my ears perked up when Dill wrote:

Amana Orange , Tomatoes
Reviewed on 05/30/2006 by farmedil
l - An experienced gardener

This cultivar has been a reliable performer for me. However I have grown them side by side in the field with Golden Ponderosa and I can't distinguish between them. They are both good dark yellow beefsteaks and could very well be a renamed cultivar.


Here you have a man who states he has been growing Golden Ponderosa for 60+ years and thinks Amana Orange may simply be a new name for Golden Ponderosa.

Quote:
As I said above there are many look alikes but finding the one from the 70's that you knew I do think will be impossible to find.
You are most likely right, I probably have to resign myself to the idea that I’ll never know what variety it was.

Quote:
Craig LeHoullier is my best friend for over 24 years now and I don't remember him saying anything about the Brandywine ( Sudduth/Quisenberry) or Red Bandywine that was contenious.
What I was referencing was thread here called “A clearer view of the Brandywine histories?” My take on that thread was that Craig was speculating that Sudduth’s Brandywine was a renamed and originally known as Mikado.

Re:

So, anyway, they describe "The Brandywine" as a second early, size large, and beautiful bright red - from the woodcut it is clearly regular leaf and about 2-3 times the size of Atlantic Prize, putting it in the 6-8 ounce range. All of this could indicate that the Johnson and Stokes Brandywine is what we know of as the Landis Valley and Heirloom Seeds version of Red Brandywine.

They do list a tomato that is a large pink potato leaf - Mikado, AKA Turner's Hybrid AKA $1000 tomato, 12-18 ounces and "very solid" (small seed cavities). To me, this matches the description of what we know as Brandywine (Sudduth or Quisenberry), so it is possible that at some point in history, Mikado was given the name "Brandywine" by some family or person.

Finally, they give a brief description for Shah - AKA "Golden Mikado", as a golden fruited version of Mikado - large fruit and potato leaf. I picture what we know of as Yellow Brandywine fitting this description well - so, again, Shah could have picked up a new name somewhere along the line.


Reference: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=14988

Quote:
I don't know if that helps, but I'm trying.
Thank you for all effort you have afforded me. It is very kind of you.

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Old June 30, 2013   #7
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If I got out my 1939 Michigan State Bulletin I could give you MANY names for MANY varieties that were used in the past and sometimes even today. Not a surprise. And that includes Ponderosa and Red Ponderosa and Golden Ponderosa as well.

I forget the variety but one of them had over 30 synonyms and that b/c there was fierce competition between seed companies back then and it wasn't unusual for a single variety to be renamed to indicate it was exclusive to a specific company.


There are many varieties that have been put forward as being Brandywine, the Mikado mentioned by Craig is just one of them. We got seeds out of the USDA and both of us grew them out and what a mess, and neither of us was very impressed.

There are several threads here at TV where the various varieties thought to be Brandywine has been discussed.

Let's leave Dill out of it but when I first looked at the varieties listed and described at that Cornell site I just got very upset with all the wrong information, contacted someone there to ask who was in charge and who was deleting or correcting the wrong info and was told that no one was. Folks could enter any info they wanted to.

So I never went back and it bothers me since I'm a Cornell alumna.

Carolyn
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Old June 30, 2013   #8
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Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post

...when I first looked at the varieties listed and described at that Cornell site I just got very upset with all the wrong information, contacted someone there to ask who was in charge and who was deleting or correcting the wrong info and was told that no one was. Folks could enter any info they wanted to.

So I never went back and it bothers me since I'm a Cornell alumna.

Carolyn
From time to time I had them add a variety and clean up some erroneous information. I had a chat with someone several years ago about Peaches & Cream corn and Bright Lights Swiss Chard.

Carolyn, I'll PM the names of the people I communicated with in the past.

Last edited by thefluffybunny; June 30, 2013 at 03:23 AM. Reason: added relevant info
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Old June 30, 2013   #9
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From time to time I had them add a variety and clean up some erroneous information. I had a chat with someone several years ago about Peaches & Cream corn and Bright Lights Swiss Chard.

Carolyn, I'll PM the names of the people I communicated with in the past.
I looked at the names in your PM and to be honest, it was so many years ago that none of them looks familiar.

That site has been up for a long time and it makes sense to me that they finally decided to have someone make changes where there are errors, etc.

But it often means that there has to be someone who actually knows where the errors are and there's no one person who does so.

I've grown one heck of a lot of everything in the past, not just tomatoes, but I don't think I'm going to go back and read whats there now to report this or that.

Carolyn, also noting that Dill is just a few years older than I am and since I was raised on what we call a truck farm here in the East, I've been up close and personal with a wide range of veggies and fruits since I was about 5 yo and just turned 74. When I moved back East from Denver to take care of my parents I kind of went wild with all the space I then had at the old farm and usually grew maybe 8-10 varieties of carrots, beets, greens of all kinds, peas, beans, melons,potatoes and you name it, I grew it, year after year after year trialing new varieties, looking for the ones that stood out.
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Old June 30, 2013   #10
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Carolyn,

Well I certainly hope you were not thinking I was disparaging your lifetime of experience. I come from a long line of horticultural families, unfortunately my parents did not carry one their families traditions and were totally industrialized. But I was growing things as long as I could remember, but being the stubborn cuss I was as a kid I never asked for help and did the trial and error method. It is a real shame too, as my uncle was a fairly well regarded grower. He was raised on the farm and when he took a city job he immediately purchased aside lot next to his home. I don’t recall there ever being store bought canned goods in that home. And when he retired he dedicated himself to tilling the soil. He died before it ever occurred to me I should have just apprenticed under him. So a lifetime of experience just passed when he did. I certainly hope you and Dill have horticultural biographers who are diligently interviewing you and recording not only the hard core horticultural details but the cultural changes you have seen over time as it relates to growing.

It is a real shame how younger generations allow treasure troves of knowledge to slip from their hands. I just turned 50 and after reflecting back on my life I see a lot of things I am going to take to me grave with me, no one has the interest (non-horticultural things).

It amazes me how many of the discoveries of each generation are simply rediscoveries of thing the previous generation or more likely the one before new and simply were not passed on only to be “rediscovered”.

Well, it has finally stopped raining so I need to harvest my sour cherries, thin my apples and bag them, thin my pears, peaches, plums and plant my last block of corn and replant my pole beans as the rabbits ate all of them (they took out my egg plants too).


Kindest regards,
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Old June 30, 2013   #11
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The Fluffy One,
I think you'll find that as sites like Tomatoville become more standard and popular, that information will be saved long after we are gone.
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Old June 30, 2013   #12
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Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
There are many varieties that have been put forward as being Brandywine, the Mikado mentioned by Craig is just one of them. We got seeds out of the USDA and both of us grew them out and what a mess, and neither of us was very impressed.
I am not sure how the tomato seed program is run, but for the pyrus, fragaria, and rubus (Pears, Strawberries, Raspberries) the USDA just takes you at your word that what you submitted is accurate. I have received germplasm that was not even close to what it should be on occasions. I inquired if the grew it out and matched it to known descriptions etc ever and for the varieties in question the answer was no, or we grew it but don’t know if anyone ever checked etc.

It is just the nature of the system. So you may or may not have been growing the proper plant. Over the years those program shave had sever funding shortages. As of a couple of decades back when I got involved we were afraid they were going to bull doze several accession sites. As it is, some of those sites are razor thin, growing only two plants to keep the species going.

And consider the now famous HoneyCrisp apple, the record keeping was not accurate and it is known the parents are not as was reported. And that was in a controlled breeding program.

Ah, don’t get me going on this…how thin our genetic pool is for corn etc…scary stuff…open borders and foot in the mouth disease etc…how susceptible our food supply is to eco-terrorism or accidental induction…okay happy thoughts now.
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Old June 30, 2013   #13
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Craig and I and many others are very familiar with the USDA PCGRIN program.

In the 90's Craig and I were able to get out most of the important varieties that weren't alreadyout and avaiolavle via the SSE Yearbooks, since over 90% of the accessions were breeding stock/

The USDA station ar Geneva, NY, was the prime place to request seeds, with backup being in Fort Collins, CO.

But growouts at Geneva were only about one foot apart due to lack of $$ for labor costs. So lots of crossed seed and the system was being terribly abused by those who were making requests and didn't even bother to check the SSE YEarbooks to see if the variety was out there already.

Craig and I were asked to be on a committee to make decisions about what could be deleted from the tomato accessions, along with breeders, physiologists, etc.,but no money was forthcoming to even be able to do that.

Things have changed and now those requesting accessions have to fill out an application and justify their interest and background to be able to get something, and with that I will agree.

When I said Mikdo was a mess, what I meant was yes, we had Mikado, PL and all, and pink, but no plants with fruits the size of what Brandywine should be. gain, there were many claims as to where Brandywine came from and discussed here probably in the Legacy Forum.

Not crossed seed at all for Mikado. But in the 90's we did get some crossed seed as well as seed with very low to no germination.

So yes, we knew the PCGRIN USDA program very well and were asked to help for tomatoes, but it never came to pass.

I understand that those who have passed the application test have gotten seeds more recently that are better. but Craig and I were pretty thorough in getting out what we thought was most important that wasn't already out.

And then SSE listing them as well as discussing them in an international newslatter we did back then called Off the Vine.

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Old March 18, 2014   #14
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Default Update on Amana Orange

Update on Amana Orange.

I grew out Amana Orange (Livingston Seeds) , KBX (Tatiana’s), Kelloggs Breakfast(PineTree) and Yellow Brandywine(PineTree) in 2013 (along with 20 or so other varieties).

Amana Orange was a standout in terms of beefsteaks, both for production, disease resistance, and flavor. And it appears it is the tomato I was searching for as noted earlier in this thread.

2013 was only the 2nd year I grew Amana Orange but the 5th year for Kelloggs Breakfast and Yellow Brandywine and the 4th year for KBX. Kellogs Breakfast, KBX, and Yellow Brandywine have been very non-productive (though KBX had about 3 times the productivity of the other two) but none of the 3 were worth growing in my estimation for taste. They were collectively rather bland and just not of tomato flavor : ( But Amana Orange was the productivity King of the BeefSteaks I grew in 2013 and had a delicious citrus like medium tomato flavor with a sweet twang to it.

To give you some idea of my tastes, my must grow every year list contains:

Red Brandywine
Sudduth’s Brandywine
Cherokee Purple
Black Giant
Aunt Ruby’s German Green
Chocolate Cherry
Mortgage Lifter

And then I rotate another 20 or so varieties, searching for varieties to add so my must grow list. At this point Amana Orange may make my must grow list (I give everything 5 seasons to decide to make it a permanent addition of my must grow list , grow occasionally, or discard.

ß end Update à
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Old March 18, 2014   #15
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As far as the Yellow Brandywine goes, if it wasn't the Platfoot strain, get some seeds of that and try it again.

Like you, as a kid I didn't care for tomatoes at all. I still don't like catchup at all. I would eat the little yellow plum tomatoes tho when I first got married and Hubby had a big garden. But as I got into the gardening too, I eventually found Yellow Plum rather tasteless, especially compared with varieties like Sun Gold.I eventually found Seed Savers Exchange and did get varieties from their public catalog. Then I found Tomatoville and all the wonderful varieties here.

I first grew mostly un-named varieties of brandywines and wondered what all the fuss was about. Then a customer sent me several varieties he wanted me to start plants for him. As he only wanted 2 plants / variety and I got about a dozen started, I got the leftovers. I found the Sudduth and Platfoot to be so much better than the non-specific generic brandywines, both in production and taste.

Like you, over the years I also have grown to like more tomatoes. I still don't care for most reds. It's that after-bite that most reds have that I don't like. But I like Pinks and purple/brown/black types, and some of the greens. Love Green Doctors, hate Green Zebra. I still eat mostly small varieties as those are what we take to farmers markets and use as nibbles during long days there. But I've found so many great tasting small tomatoes thanks to TVille.

The first year we had a field day at our farm, it was a cool "no summer" type year. We had a hard time getting ripe varieties for the Sunday before Labor Day. But we had some few Platfoots ripe and the taste knocked our socks off. Unexpectedly strong for a yellow / orange and a bit zingy. Unfortunately it's still not as productive as I would like in a variety, but better than most un-named brandywines around here.

Carol
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