Micro-organisms

[beeman]

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

The site beeman referred to is hosted by folks that are selling EM products. No references to check their science.
<snip>
I'm ending this.

I do wish that 'naysayers' would take the time to read the information supplied on the URLs posted.
If you had taken the time to even access the site you would have noticed there is no mention of 'sales' on the site I posted. All it is information on a system which is proving to be very useful to them in many areas of both plant and animal husbandry.
Your 'natural state of sarcasm' is begining to cloud any objectivity necessary when dealing with other members on discussion forums. I would hope we have the opportunity for sensible discussion of gardening matters, on a gardening forum, without you lying in wait to decry what we need to discuss.

[amideutch]

Here is a few links concerning BIM from our cannabis friends and you may have to register to access the links there but you don't have to smoke anything to do it. I often peruse these sites for good info on organic and inorganic growing information. Ami

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=2816

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/sho...?t=1787&page=2

[amideutch]

Here is some more interesting info from the cannabis links. Ami

[amideutch]

Check out this YouTube link entitled "Permaculture in Cambodia with Rico Zook" and it's in 4 parts. Ami

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...rch_type=&aq=f

[Mischka]

A gentle reminder:

Members are welcome to disagree with each other, but must do so in a manner that isn't insulting or otherwise derogatory.

I've enjoyed reading opinions from both sides of this discussion, as I'm sure others have, but I don't want to see this thread deteriorate into an excuse to post mud-slinging diatribes.

[dice]

The article on Carandang seems to me to mix two different
ideas that are only related by the fermenting method that
produces them:

Is lactobacillus indigenous in the native soils everywhere?
Perhaps not (temperatures, competition, etc). So that would
not be a "BIM" (beneficial *indigenous* microorganism). Is it
potentially useful in preparing composts, manures, and various
sorts of fermented organic material for use in the garden or
field? Sounds like it is. There may not be any peer-reviewed
papers to back it up, but Carandang is obviously not an idiot,
and he does not sound like a huckster to me. He is simply
relating a method that seems to work in his home environment
and how exactly they do it.

So why beneficial *indigenous* microorganisms, the second
idea? These would be different organisms in different parts
of the world, so why would one expect them to be useful
in any garden anywhere? Perhaps because they can speed
up decomposition of nutrient bearing organic matter and
complex mineral compounds in a garden soil without being
killed off by either the local climate or other competitive local
organisms also native to the same soils, simply because they
are "indigenous"?

It is a reasonable theory, worth exploring, perhaps worth
trying on test plots in one's own garden or field, but it would
take a lot of formal research in a lot of different locales and
climates to be able to say that this is definitely going to be
useful for any gardener or farmer anywhere.

That research has apparently not been done by independent
scientific establishments, and until it has been, this technique
must remain in the category of "gardening lore" rather than
"facts known to science to be true".

Hey, if using BIMs works for you, great. Claiming that it will
certainly help anyone gardening anywhere is still a bluff.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by dice

That research has apparently not been done by independent scientific establishments' and until it has been, this technique
must remain in the category of "gardening lore" rather than
"facts known to science to be true".
Hey, if using BIMs works for you, great. Claiming that it will
certainly help anyone gardening anywhere is still a bluff.

It is highly unlikely there will ever be any research done by the 'independent scientific establishments' as they're no longer 'independent', they were bought out long ago by the 'chemical companies'.
If you look around you'll find many, many advocates using both BIM and ACT. Perhaps we should look to see how many have had problems using the new ideas? Then and only then can we warn people off.

[Blueaussi]

Originally Posted by beeman

I do wish that 'naysayers' would take the time to read the information supplied on the URLs posted.

I did read it. All 49 pages. And then I tracked back to the home page of the site that hosted it and read some more. Then I googled on "effective microorganisms" and read some more. The fact that I disagree with your assessment of the information doesn't make me a naysayer. I think it's an intriguing idea, but I'm very uncomfortable with information that is being pushed solely by folks who wish to profit from it.

If you had taken the time to even access the site you would have noticed there is no mention of 'sales' on the site I posted. All it is information on a system which is proving to be very useful to them in many areas of both plant and animal husbandry.

The company that hosts the PDF you linked to lists who distributes their products in the Asian-Pacific area. They also hold workshops which one pays to attend. So, see, I took quite a bit of time to examine the information that you posted.

I'm sorry having hard questions about something you're so enthusiastic about has made you so uncomfortable.

[Blueaussi]

Dice, as I understand it, one of the supposed advantages of so called effective microorganisms is that they replace and/or prevent proliferation of harmful microorganisms; Fusarium Wilt was the one mentioned specifically in one of the papers I read. If you switch to a beneficial indigenous microorganism, you'd have to test to see if it or they also prevented disease by blocking pathogenic microorganisms. To do that, you'd have to deliberately infect your garden to see if the plants treated with BIM resisted the disease or not. I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to risk infecting my garden!

The thing I wondered about the articles suggesting folks make their own was how would you know what it was you were introducing to your garden? It's been at least 10 years since I've done much micro work, but I can't see the average gardener being able to preform the battery of tests id'ing them would require. And most of the EM articles talked about removing fungi while keeping yeast from the mix, too. And who has the set up to do that? And what if you introduced a pathogenic organism instead of a beneficial one?

So, it seemed to come back to mulching your garden with compost to increase general soil health and sturcture, which most of us do anyway.

[velikipop]

I'm not sure why a healthy dose of scepticisim is seen as offensive or why it would lead someone to assume that one is opposed to organic gardening. I have not been gardening for long, but discovered very quickly that there is an enormous amount of hype and misinformation about organic methods, after all, those involved in the marketing and selling of these products are business people as well, looking to make a profit. Simply because they make certains claims should not mean that I or anyone else should accept them uncritically, because they are "organic". Consumers benefit only when they are well informed and organic methods and industry must be subject to the same scrutiny as others.

Having invested and wasted a lot of time and money in the pursuit of organic gardening, I appreciate information that is accurate and validated by research as well as experience. On the current topic I will remain a sceptic until I see more solid scientific research that can be replicated.

Alex

[igarden]

Originally Posted by velikipop

I'm not sure why a healthy dose of scepticisim is seen as offensive or why it would lead someone to assume that one is opposed to organic gardening. I have not been gardening for long, but discovered very quickly that there is an enormous amount of hype and misinformation about organic methods, after all, those involved in the marketing and selling of these products are business people as well, looking to make a profit. Simply because they make certains claims should not mean that I or anyone else should accept them uncritically, because they are "organic". Consumers benefit only when they are well informed and organic methods and industry must be subject to the same scrutiny as others.

then again, there are farmers and gardeners and such like Gil C. who explore and release recipes they've made that are organic and that one can make themselves instead of having to buy commercially. there are many out there who put out information to help the organic gardener, farmer. i much prefer experimenting with homemade recipes with natural ingredients rather than purchase from some company.

Having invested and wasted a lot of time and money in the pursuit of organic gardening, I appreciate information that is accurate and validated by research as well as experience. On the current topic I will remain a sceptic until I see more solid scientific research that can be replicated.

Alex

i personally have not spent a lot of monies or time on 'organic' products. i rather have chosen to seek out homemade remedies. many work. some do not.

imo, there's a lot of information and homegrown recipes on the net concerning this topic, and, one can experiment in their own gardens very safely in small patches or starting with one plant or two that is having a struggle. this is how i've been working with it and i have definitely seen drastic, positive improvements in one summer. i need to take pics next year to post, maybe it would help.

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

Dice, as I understand it, one of the supposed advantages of so called effective microorganisms is that they replace and/or prevent proliferation of harmful microorganisms; Fusarium Wilt was the one mentioned specifically in one of the papers I read. If you switch to a beneficial indigenous microorganism, you'd have to test to see if it or they also prevented disease by blocking pathogenic microorganisms. To do that, you'd have to deliberately infect your garden to see if the plants treated with BIM resisted the disease or not. I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to risk infecting my garden!

from what i understand, all the ingredients one uses to make the LB and the EM/BIM from Gil's article are natural. even better would be to use plants and soil from one's own environmental area or near it instead of elsewhere, or from a place where the soil is as you want in your own garden. he is giving us all the ability to make our own rather than have to purchaase it from some company.

and one would not have to 'infect' their garden. all one has to do is find a problem in their garden and try the formula and see if the plants respond. i tried it on a yellowing potted plant to begin with and then spread out to plants with problems in my garden. i saw results.

The thing I wondered about the articles suggesting folks make their own was how would you know what it was you were introducing to your garden? It's been at least 10 years since I've done much micro work, but I can't see the average gardener being able to preform the battery of tests id'ing them would require. And most of the EM articles talked about removing fungi while keeping yeast from the mix, too. And who has the set up to do that? And what if you introduced a pathogenic organism instead of a beneficial one?

So, it seemed to come back to mulching your garden with compost to increase general soil health and sturcture, which most of us do anyway.

the way i see it is EM is "designed to improve (feed) the soil and grow productive healthy plants by utilizing what would otherwise be thrown out - same as with compost but much quicker. Often times, soils have enough nutrients, just that they are locked up - not soluable. Microbial activity makes nutrients more easily available to plant roots (think mycorrhizal fungi as an example). It also allows you to selectively ferment inputs for specific needs. It was designed as a means for poor countries to become self-sufficient without expensive external inputs - by claiming to build disease suppressive soils."

[velikipop]

Igaden, you make a lot of good points and I don't fundamentally disagree. I also make and prefer home made products, but I don't neccessarily agree that all of these work or that the net is great source for accurate information. I've tried many recipies, and have had to pay for the materials, and sadly they have fallen short of what others claim are the benefits, maybe the problem is with me?? From my experience leaves and straw are the best material to promote healthy soil....cheap and effective.

[igarden]

velikipop, i agree also about the net not having all accurate info. i have to sift through what i find. i always test in small portions and most always try and use items on hand. this LB, EM/BIM, etc... i find really interesting, very complicated and confusing at times, but easier as i get the hang of it. also, the small experimenting i've done, so far with LB, has shown great results. the plants literally flourish overnight.

but...i must admit...i still mulch with leaves and straw too!

[amideutch]

The question is, with Lactobacillies there are approximately 125 species. Which one are we talking about? The only time I've seen a plant flourish overnight was when I watered it after missing a day. As far as the anti commercial references these companies are the one's that spend the big bucks to purchase the needed test equipment to do the research on the Rhizobacteria we are talking about. They have a right to reap the fruits of their labor like anybody else in a capitalist system or go bust if they don't. Ami

[Mischka]

Originally Posted by amideutch

The only time I've seen a plant flourish overnight was when I watered it after missing a day.

LOL Ami, you made me inhale a mouthful of Diet Mountain Dew when I read that!!! <still coughing and laughing>