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Old February 5, 2017   #226
Darren Abbey
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Mutated (or something or other) vs. Filial. I think it is more carrying on the metaphor, rather than having a specific word that it harkens to.
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Old February 5, 2017   #227
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Some mutations are dominant and show in the M1 generation but many are recessive and require selfing the M1 and screening of the M2 (analogous to the F2 of a normal cross) to recover individuals with two copies of the affected gene to express the trait.

Most mutageneses generate multiple hits per genome to increase the chances of getting something interesting. Only a few generate visible phenotypes, but many can have a negative effect on the health of the plant, so carrying things out a few generations can let things segregate and help reduce negative genetic effects. A breeder might also back-cross to the original line since that is identical, except for the induced mutations, as a way to restore vigor but that is more labor intensive (particularly in the case of recessive traits).
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Old February 17, 2017   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labradors2 View Post
Would it be better to get seeds directly from a striped Enjoya or from some seeds that have been grown out?
I'm wondering this, also. Would it be better for me to find an Enjoya to start the seeds from, or for me to get M1/M2/whatever seeds from someone?
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Old February 17, 2017   #229
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What are you trying to do? Shoot for that rare mutation (i.e. flames)? IMO you should start from the original. But others understand genetics better than I. Guys?
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Old February 17, 2017   #230
Merridiel
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What are you trying to do? Shoot for that rare mutation (i.e. flames)? IMO you should start from the original. But others understand genetics better than I. Guys?
Honestly, I'm just happy if something doesn't die before I get to eat it. I figure it sounds tasty and it could be fun to see if a surprise pops up later down the line. I just thought I'd ask in case I might be more useful to people here one way or the other.
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Old February 17, 2017   #231
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Merridiel - shoot me a PM, and I will send you some seeds from a striped fruit purchased last fall. So far, no one has seen stripes in a plant from F1/M1 seeds. I'm not clear on whether the people with the first crack at seeds have started enough mass seeds to find those elusive recessives -- if such exist here. Seeds have been distributed via various exchanges, so we might learn more after this growing season if anyone gets lucky. It's always possible something could show up in the next couple of generations, but we'll probably never know, since people will likely give up when they don't see stripes right away.
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Old February 17, 2017   #232
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Originally Posted by ddsack View Post
Merridiel - shoot me a PM, and I will send you some seeds from a striped fruit purchased last fall. So far, no one has seen stripes in a plant from F1/M1 seeds. I'm not clear on whether the people with the first crack at seeds have started enough mass seeds to find those elusive recessives -- if such exist here. Seeds have been distributed via various exchanges, so we might learn more after this growing season if anyone gets lucky. It's always possible something could show up in the next couple of generations, but we'll probably never know, since people will likely give up when they don't see stripes right away.
Thank you! I'll only have room for a few plants, maybe 3 or so. But once I start saving my own seeds I'll pass them out to family and gardening groups. It'll be interesting to see if something shows up later or not.
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Old February 20, 2017   #233
Darren Abbey
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Originally Posted by dmforcier View Post
What are you trying to do? Shoot for that rare mutation (i.e. flames)? IMO you should start from the original. But others understand genetics better than I. Guys?
I'm still thinking there will be a very rare plant grown from seeds saved from an Enjoya pepper that will show the stripes. The genetics are unclear, but the more data we can get the more clear it will become.
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Old February 20, 2017   #234
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Originally Posted by Labradors2 View Post
Good to know that it's a worthwhile pepper to grow.

Would it be better to get seeds directly from a striped Enjoya or from some seeds that have been grown out?

Maybe someone needs to splash a little Roundup on them. I've heard that can do some interesting things to Daylilies (if it doesn't kill them first)

Linda
No not round up. You probably would kill them. There are those mutants that have shown up in Daylilies, usually it comes from what is commonly called gene jumping or manipulating the Madd genes in the plant.

A few folks have tried microwaves. Nobody posted results of how that worked. Best bet if not a natural mutation is xrays for home folks. EMS 9 ethyl methane sulfonate) is used too but too dangerous for untutored folks to handle and work with.

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Originally Posted by Darren Abbey View Post
I'm still thinking there will be a very rare plant grown from seeds saved from an Enjoya pepper that will show the stripes. The genetics are unclear, but the more data we can get the more clear it will become.
One thing that might be good is if folks also posted pics of their foliage. If you google 'methods for creating mutants in peppers' there a whole lot of scientific research papers about it. Who knew! The few I have read mentioned alot about the difference in foliage first.

Some I read also suggested that especially in the M2 generation alot of differences would up.

With foliage pics posted might see some genetic diversity that might lead to something.

Darren... Did you know that there is a mutant database? Followed a link from another site to it. Not sure how up to date it is, but did find some peppers listed

https://mvd.iaea.org/#!Search?page=1...t=ASC&Criteria[0][field]=FreeText&Criteria[0][val]=Pepper

Mutant
F1 Orange Beauty
https://mvd.iaea.org/#!Variety/3429

Like a lot of the mutants looks like they used 120 Gy of xray. Have no idea what the Gy stands for.

What was interesting to note and a few of us that took seed to have xrayed along with kids candy to make sure it was safe back in the day, didn't have to much success. Might have been to low a dose or what I found interesting in some reports was they soaked the seed for several hours before xraying to get the mutants.

Page for tomatoes for anybody interested

https://mvd.iaea.org/#!Search?page=1...t=ASC&Criteria[0][field]=FreeText&Criteria[0][val]=Tomato

A question.... With how easily peppers cross, wouldn't it actually be better to try out-crossing and back-crossing to get the desirable traits you want. Wouldn't that make future generations more easy to stabilize?
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Old February 23, 2017   #235
Darren Abbey
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I've written a new post over at my blog about these peppers.

There are some photos and thoughts haven't shared here.

http://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot....ya-pepper.html
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Old February 23, 2017   #236
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Fascinating read. Thank you it is explained so clearly and understandably. So no seeds in the red tissues.
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Old February 23, 2017   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Abbey View Post
I've written a new post over at my blog about these peppers.

There are some photos and thoughts haven't shared here.

http://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot....ya-pepper.html
Another enjoyable article. I had a ways back enjoyed your article on the color of tomatoes. Learned a lot from it.

I plan on starting all the seeds I have. I plan on isolating all of them so they basic self. I'm going to take one or two plants once I see what is produced and am thinking about crossing it with Putzagold and the Fish Pepper.

Putzagold because it sweet and not sure what might come out from the cross. Pic is a young seedling that had started making a pepper. The peppers started out green then went to like cream, then had pale yellow, with tangerine color and added just a touch of red blotch to the mix at the end. I loved seeing all the colors on it.

Gonna try the Fish Pepper because it has stripes. Have no idea what to expect, but thinking maybe with the stripes there might be some way to yet get that Jalapeno with red stripes.

Just wish it didn't take so long for the plants to grow and produce.
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Old February 24, 2017   #238
Darren Abbey
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Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
I plan on starting all the seeds I have. I plan on isolating all of them so they basic self. I'm going to take one or two plants once I see what is produced and am thinking about crossing it with Putzagold and the Fish Pepper.
I've already crossed one of the M2s with a separate line I have that has large purple flowers. My goals for it are to breed up a larger-flowered type for floral display, as well as just playing around with the interesting F2s that will be produced from the divergent parental genetics.


I also want to cross an M2 to a line of small-sweet-brown-upright fruited bells, with the goals of increasing the fruit size but otherwise maintain the overall form.

I'd never heard of Putzagold. It sounds pretty.

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Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
Gonna try the Fish Pepper because it has stripes. Have no idea what to expect, but thinking maybe with the stripes there might be some way to yet get that Jalapeno with red stripes.
The variegation in Fish is reportedly very heritable, but I haven't been able to find much detailed information. If you crossed it with a brown jalapeno-type, you should be able to get a plant in the F2s that has fruit which ripen red with brown stripes (or brown with red stripes). It would be a different aesthetic than the Enjoya pepper, but it'd have some of the novelty.

I have Fish pepper, as well as some nice jalapeno types, and some brown types. I can't seem to find any images of a true-brown jalapeno, so that combination may not be available. Getting all of the traits piled into one plant would take a few years... we may have something to keep discussing that would be fitting for the name of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
Just wish it didn't take so long for the plants to grow and produce.
Don't I know it. I'm in Minnesota. I had to pull them out of my garden and put them under lights to get them to ripen. It would help to get them started much sooner than I did, so I hope to have better luck this year. It would also help to keep the rabbits off of them, which may be trickier.
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Last edited by Darren Abbey; February 24, 2017 at 01:18 AM.
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Old February 24, 2017   #239
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Hasn't anybody tried to back cross-it, or F2 x F3? (Darren's M2 x M3)
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Old February 24, 2017   #240
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There is a Pusztagold Pepper.
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