Growing Beans - How Much, When, and How close?

lakelady · January 16, 2012

I love dry beans for all sorts of recipes. I'd like to grow some dry pole types for this year and have a few questions. I know varieties vary in their production, and environmental factors shoud be considered, but is there any sort of rule of thumb for growing them such as for 1 lb dry beans, plant X number of plants? The varieties I have are:

True Red Cranberry
Hidatsa Shield
Good Mother Stallard
Mayflower

Since I have limited space, I thought poles would be best and I can put one setup here, one setup there, that sort of thing to avoid cross pollination and save seed as well. I'd like to get 3-5 lbs per variety if possible, dry.

I also have my green pole and purple podded poles to consider too. How far apart do you think beans need to be to avoid cross pollination? I was thinking of putting them in the new beds I'm going to build 12x3, 2 of them for tomatoes, along sides.

I also got a bush type, but have absolutely no idea where that one is going. As usual, I'll probably seed way more of everything than I have room for, ugh.

Also, last year I planted my pole beans kind of late. Should they go out same time as tomatoes?

Thanks!

Oh, and can I plant pole beans and bush beans near peas or will they be a problem?

Tormato · January 24, 2012

Lakelady,

2 to 4 ounces is the general range I get for dry pole beans per plant. I'd guess
2 1/2 ounces is the average.

For me, True Red Cranberry has had the lowest production of the many, many dry bean varieties I've trialed. My guesstimate is about 1 oz/plant. I hope you get better results.

I wouldn't want to be the one to shell 3-5 lbs of Mayflower. It's productive, for me, but that seed is small!

I plant pole beans with 6" spacing, bush beans with 4". This is the recommended spacing for snaps. I wouldn't know if wider spacing would produce more dry seeds per foot of row. There's a tradeoff of more production per plant, but less plants.

Because of the frequent rain in 2011, for the first time, most of my bush varieties outproduced the pole types for dry seed. The bush plants were harvested earlier, before the relentless rains. Many of my pole dry beans never dried down. Some of them germinated in the pod. 2011 was the first year I had roots popping out of the pods.

I have a collection of about 200 varieties of pole & bush, snap, shelly, and dry. If you're looking for a variety, just ask.

Gary

puttgirl · January 24, 2012

Good thread. I've always grown pole snaps but never dried beans. Tormato, what is a good, productive dried bean for you?

RobinB · January 24, 2012

It seems challenging to find any kind of dry beans that will produce in a short-season area (say 75 or so). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but with green beans they'll keep producing if you keep picking them, but with dry beans you need to leave the beans on until they are dry... right? So if that's true, it comes down to which type of plant will produce the most on the plant because they don't get to keep producing... right? Mostly I've only grown bush dry beans (and pole green beans) but wasn't pleased with the production of the bush plants at all. Last year, I tried Lingua di Fuoco (from Remy, sampleseeds.com) and they really produced a lot! I like that one because you can shell the beans and eat them fresh or wait until they dry. They filled out in a reasonable amount of time and kept producing until frost. I picked some green (and they seemed to keep producing) and let some dry on the plant. I planted them in a bed that I set up for "square foot gardening". I planted them 16 to a square (2" apart) along two sides of a 4' x 4' bed. I planted over a hundred plants. They did great. Suggestions as to other shorter season bush or pole dry beans would be most appreciated!

Fusion_power · January 25, 2012

Jacob's Cattle is a fairly decent dry bush bean for production, flavor, and maturity.

My preferences seem to always be changing. I've got some Zuni Red beans in the freezer that are going to get planted this spring. They are near the top of good flavored beans that I've grown. I also have some Rio Zape that will go in this year too. Then I will plant a row of P10 Nuna beans because they are very pretty, very productive, and they pop like popcorn. I haven't even begun to plan other varieties after those. I need to grow some Turkey Craw, some Fortex, some Tobacco Worm, some Alabama #1, etc.

My current seed inventory is here though I will be adding about a dozen more varieties over the next 2 weeks.

http://www.selectedplants.com/beanvarieties.htm

DarJones

Tormato · January 25, 2012

Puttgirl,

My best producing pole dry bean, so far, is Uncle Walt's Vermont Cranberry. I trialed it in a year with near perfect weather. So, comparing it to trials of other dry beans, in not so great weather, doesn't tell me much. I do know that it's a very large bean, that's easy to shell, and is fairly early for a pole type. Tomatoaddict (Terry) , who sent me the seed, says they taste great. Picking height is just about perfect for me. Most pods are three to seven feet up the vine.

As for taste...well, I've yet to eat any of the dry bean varieties that I've trialed. I just harvest them to trade or give away. Maybe this year I'll finally get around to cooking some.

While I trial dry beans, ~95% of the bean plants in my garden are for fresh snaps.

Gary

puttgirl · January 25, 2012

I thought those were a bush bean, maybe uncle walt's isn't?

puttgirl · January 25, 2012

Just did a little search, I guess they are a pole bean. I couldn't find a source for them, though.

Tormato · January 26, 2012

?

I'm a source. Send me a PM.

!

Zeedman · January 27, 2012

There is apparently considerable variation in pole bean dry seed yield. I use wider spacing for most pole beans - 12" between plants is my default. I grow many beans for seed, and (usually) record the results. My over-all average is over 6 ounces per plant, with some varieties more than twice that. A row of "Striped Cornfield" had an average of over 11 ounces per plant, and "Brita's Foot Long" averaged over 10 oz./plant. I've had single plants of several varieties yield nearly a pound of dry seed.

It's worth noting, though, that soil fertility has a major impact. I have 3 plots on two widely separated properties, and the same variety will perform differently in all 3 plots.

I grew a 20-foot row of "True Red Cranberry" (with 12" spacing) and wasn't terribly impressed by its yield either.

Fusion_power · January 27, 2012

True Red Cranberry is highly climate sensitive. It yields next to nothing here in the deep south. I got the same results for Uncle Walts Vermont Cranberry.

It is fun to grow new varieties and see just how much they can produce.

Here is a list of varieties I have grown that have reasonable production in the deep south.
Alabama #1 - Very nematode tolerant, decent production, good canner
Blue Marbut - excellent production and an exceptional canning bean
Black Seeded Blue Lake - another good all around pole bean
Dade - an old commercial bean that is well adapted and productive, but I don't prefer the flavor
Emerite - Exceptionally good sweet flavor and decent canning bean
Fortex - exceptionally good in bean for production and decent flavor, a bit soft as a canner, great for fresh use
Grandma Roberts (black, brown, and white tricolor) pole bean - Good production, great flavor, but has strings.
Grandma Roberts Purple pole bean - Best of the purple beans for cool soil germination, production, and heat tolerance
Jeminez - a good eating bean but a bit coarse and not exceptional as a canner
Kilgore Black Shelling bean - good production, decent flavor, a good dual purpose bean for snaps and shellies
Leona Dillon creaseback - oddest shaped string bean I've grown, the beans are actually bent in the middle, very productive
Louisiana Purple - great production, but imo, so-so flavor
Meraviglia Venizia (white seeded) - good production for a yellow bean, flavor good, not a good canner, excellent in bean salad
Musica - best of the roma type pole beans I've grown, excellent production, excellent canner
Purple King - another great producer but so-so flavor
Rattlesnake - the hands down most heat tolerant bean, great production, decent flavor, decent canner
NT Half Runner - an excellent variety from Bill Best, productive, great flavor, good canner
Rose - good production, decent flavor, good as a shelly, one of the "frosted" beans
Striped Bunch - the best Dilly bean I've grown, a true 1/2 runner
Striped Hull Greasy Cutshort - the best flavored bean I've grown, but not very productive
Super Marconi - Highly productive, but imo, flavor is too intense, not a good canner
Tobacco Worm - an outstandingly good bean flavorwise, but not highly productive
Turkey Craw - Best quad purpose bean available, can be snapped, shelled, dried, and made into leather britches.

DarJones

Petronius_II · January 27, 2012

You should try growing Anasazi beans. Certainly do better in heat than most other beans, and that definitely includes Kentucky Wonder. Don't have any idea if humidity would affect it adversely or not; my educated guess is, not.

I've always just grown grocery store specimens, which may not be that great an idea because of the cross-breeding thing. I've had grocery store specimens of Anasazi produce a bush version with occasional half-runners, basically indistinguishable from Jacob's Cattle, but if it produces the pole version, it produces abundantly. A bit late. Good for a green bean or a dry bean. Sometimes has a bit of a string if the pod gets old enough, but usually stringless.

I got some seed at the Food Co-Op last year that is from Dove Creek, the Colorado company that has the gall to somehow claim exclusive rights to use of the trademarked name they gave it. To me, the idea of trademarking a varietal name-- especially for an OP heirloom-- is nothing short of outright heresy. Their trademark is probably legally unenforceable, but it irks me that they'd even try.

Somewhere along the way, somebody concocted the fabulous story that it was grown out from archaeological specimens hundreds of years old, discovered in a sealed jar or some such, at a cliff dwelling or some such place, and and and... I don't believe it. Nobody's ever tried to document who was the discoverer. Don't ask me if Dove Creek themselves concocted the story. But it's a great bean, regardless of how it's almost certainly just a Southwestern heirloom that was little known until Dove Creek started marketing it.

Fusion_power · January 27, 2012

Petronius, I have these on the schedule for this year.

Rio Zape
Zuni Red
Zuni Gold

I've tried the 1500 year old cave beans in the past and had very low production.

I hate to say it, but in my climate, cowpeas are far more reliable than most Phaseolus bean varieties.

DarJones

lakelady · January 27, 2012

Wow this is hugely informative, so thanks everyone for your input. Last year I tried the Chinese foot long beans, and they did terribly for me, they were dried out tasting although productive. I also had Trionfo Violetta beans, and they were very productive for me. I plan on growing those again, along with the Super Marconi, and Favas. Since I don't have too much room I have to play around with some things to make room for more plants where I have full sun. Pole beans would be better with my limited space.

Dar, holy cow that is some huge list of beans! How long can you save seeds (viability?). I'm still trying to understand runners and half runners and greasy beans.

The True Red Cranberry beans will be planted because I think they are so pretty (look just like cranberries!), but I'll not expect too much in the way of production out of them. I actually do think I have some Jacob's cattle too, I'll look.

Can you really freeze bean seed for planting the following year? Do you freeze them in the pod or shelled? I just thought you had to dry them on the vine and then save them dried for the following year.

It will be fun to see what produces, how it grows, etc. My kids mostly like green beans, but I like dried beans a lot and favas

.

Fusion_power · January 27, 2012

Beans should be shelled, dried thoroughly, then put in ziploc bags in the freezer for long term storage. I've had excellent results up to 5 years, acceptable germination up to 10 years, and very weak germination up to 15 years.

If you want to preserve long term germination better, they should be stored in glass jars in the freezer.

DarJones

January 27, 2012	#12
Petronius_II Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Albuquerque, NM - Zone 7a Posts: 209	You should try growing Anasazi beans. Certainly do better in heat than most other beans, and that definitely includes Kentucky Wonder. Don't have any idea if humidity would affect it adversely or not; my educated guess is, not. I've always just grown grocery store specimens, which may not be that great an idea because of the cross-breeding thing. I've had grocery store specimens of Anasazi produce a bush version with occasional half-runners, basically indistinguishable from Jacob's Cattle, but if it produces the pole version, it produces abundantly. A bit late. Good for a green bean or a dry bean. Sometimes has a bit of a string if the pod gets old enough, but usually stringless. I got some seed at the Food Co-Op last year that is from Dove Creek, the Colorado company that has the gall to somehow claim exclusive rights to use of the trademarked name they gave it. To me, the idea of trademarking a varietal name-- especially for an OP heirloom-- is nothing short of outright heresy. Their trademark is probably legally unenforceable, but it irks me that they'd even try. Somewhere along the way, somebody concocted the fabulous story that it was grown out from archaeological specimens hundreds of years old, discovered in a sealed jar or some such, at a cliff dwelling or some such place, and and and... I don't believe it. Nobody's ever tried to document who was the discoverer. Don't ask me if Dove Creek themselves concocted the story. But it's a great bean, regardless of how it's almost certainly just a Southwestern heirloom that was little known until Dove Creek started marketing it. Last edited by Petronius_II; January 27, 2012 at 02:49 AM. Reason: error correction

January 27, 2012	#14
lakelady Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: northern NJ zone 6b Posts: 1,862	Wow this is hugely informative, so thanks everyone for your input. Last year I tried the Chinese foot long beans, and they did terribly for me, they were dried out tasting although productive. I also had Trionfo Violetta beans, and they were very productive for me. I plan on growing those again, along with the Super Marconi, and Favas. Since I don't have too much room I have to play around with some things to make room for more plants where I have full sun. Pole beans would be better with my limited space. Dar, holy cow that is some huge list of beans! How long can you save seeds (viability?). I'm still trying to understand runners and half runners and greasy beans. The True Red Cranberry beans will be planted because I think they are so pretty (look just like cranberries!), but I'll not expect too much in the way of production out of them. I actually do think I have some Jacob's cattle too, I'll look. Can you really freeze bean seed for planting the following year? Do you freeze them in the pod or shelled? I just thought you had to dry them on the vine and then save them dried for the following year. It will be fun to see what produces, how it grows, etc. My kids mostly like green beans, but I like dried beans a lot and favas . __________________ Antoniette

January 16, 2012	#1
lakelady Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: northern NJ zone 6b Posts: 1,862	Growing Beans - How Much, When, and How close? I love dry beans for all sorts of recipes. I'd like to grow some dry pole types for this year and have a few questions. I know varieties vary in their production, and environmental factors shoud be considered, but is there any sort of rule of thumb for growing them such as for 1 lb dry beans, plant X number of plants? The varieties I have are: True Red Cranberry Hidatsa Shield Good Mother Stallard Mayflower Since I have limited space, I thought poles would be best and I can put one setup here, one setup there, that sort of thing to avoid cross pollination and save seed as well. I'd like to get 3-5 lbs per variety if possible, dry. I also have my green pole and purple podded poles to consider too. How far apart do you think beans need to be to avoid cross pollination? I was thinking of putting them in the new beds I'm going to build 12x3, 2 of them for tomatoes, along sides. I also got a bush type, but have absolutely no idea where that one is going. As usual, I'll probably seed way more of everything than I have room for, ugh. Also, last year I planted my pole beans kind of late. Should they go out same time as tomatoes? Thanks! Oh, and can I plant pole beans and bush beans near peas or will they be a problem? __________________ Antoniette

January 24, 2012	#2
Tormato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MA Posts: 4,959	Lakelady, 2 to 4 ounces is the general range I get for dry pole beans per plant. I'd guess 2 1/2 ounces is the average. For me, True Red Cranberry has had the lowest production of the many, many dry bean varieties I've trialed. My guesstimate is about 1 oz/plant. I hope you get better results. I wouldn't want to be the one to shell 3-5 lbs of Mayflower. It's productive, for me, but that seed is small! I plant pole beans with 6" spacing, bush beans with 4". This is the recommended spacing for snaps. I wouldn't know if wider spacing would produce more dry seeds per foot of row. There's a tradeoff of more production per plant, but less plants. Because of the frequent rain in 2011, for the first time, most of my bush varieties outproduced the pole types for dry seed. The bush plants were harvested earlier, before the relentless rains. Many of my pole dry beans never dried down. Some of them germinated in the pod. 2011 was the first year I had roots popping out of the pods. I have a collection of about 200 varieties of pole & bush, snap, shelly, and dry. If you're looking for a variety, just ask. Gary

January 24, 2012	#3
puttgirl Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW PA Posts: 281	Good thread. I've always grown pole snaps but never dried beans. Tormato, what is a good, productive dried bean for you?

January 24, 2012	#4
RobinB Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Near Reno, NV Posts: 1,621	It seems challenging to find any kind of dry beans that will produce in a short-season area (say 75 or so). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but with green beans they'll keep producing if you keep picking them, but with dry beans you need to leave the beans on until they are dry... right? So if that's true, it comes down to which type of plant will produce the most on the plant because they don't get to keep producing... right? Mostly I've only grown bush dry beans (and pole green beans) but wasn't pleased with the production of the bush plants at all. Last year, I tried Lingua di Fuoco (from Remy, sampleseeds.com) and they really produced a lot! I like that one because you can shell the beans and eat them fresh or wait until they dry. They filled out in a reasonable amount of time and kept producing until frost. I picked some green (and they seemed to keep producing) and let some dry on the plant. I planted them in a bed that I set up for "square foot gardening". I planted them 16 to a square (2" apart) along two sides of a 4' x 4' bed. I planted over a hundred plants. They did great. Suggestions as to other shorter season bush or pole dry beans would be most appreciated!

January 25, 2012	#5
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	Jacob's Cattle is a fairly decent dry bush bean for production, flavor, and maturity. My preferences seem to always be changing. I've got some Zuni Red beans in the freezer that are going to get planted this spring. They are near the top of good flavored beans that I've grown. I also have some Rio Zape that will go in this year too. Then I will plant a row of P10 Nuna beans because they are very pretty, very productive, and they pop like popcorn. I haven't even begun to plan other varieties after those. I need to grow some Turkey Craw, some Fortex, some Tobacco Worm, some Alabama #1, etc. My current seed inventory is here though I will be adding about a dozen more varieties over the next 2 weeks. http://www.selectedplants.com/beanvarieties.htm DarJones

January 26, 2012	#9
Tormato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MA Posts: 4,959	? I'm a source. Send me a PM. !

January 27, 2012	#10
Zeedman Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 313	There is apparently considerable variation in pole bean dry seed yield. I use wider spacing for most pole beans - 12" between plants is my default. I grow many beans for seed, and (usually) record the results. My over-all average is over 6 ounces per plant, with some varieties more than twice that. A row of "Striped Cornfield" had an average of over 11 ounces per plant, and "Brita's Foot Long" averaged over 10 oz./plant. I've had single plants of several varieties yield nearly a pound of dry seed. It's worth noting, though, that soil fertility has a major impact. I have 3 plots on two widely separated properties, and the same variety will perform differently in all 3 plots. I grew a 20-foot row of "True Red Cranberry" (with 12" spacing) and wasn't terribly impressed by its yield either.