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Old June 5, 2016   #1
bower
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Default Hilbert's Grand tomato Hotel - 2016

It's now 60 days since this season's guests started to germinate, and since many of them are already flowering I thought I'd start this thread as I'm revisiting the early 'tell' of flower colour and the size of buds and number of petals as early clues about the fruit.

After the hotel was invaded last season by thieves (slugs and fungus gnats) and by dating agencies other than the hotel's own (wild bees) we opted for a complete change of bedding, which hasn't been entirely successful since I spotted two days ago a tiny metallic blue bee among the early guests. A carpenter bee the size of a small rodent buzzed the place yesterday and made a huge racket trying to get in through a vent - which fortunately failed.... for now. In the circumstances early tells are even more important, to reassure me that the arranged marriages are going as planned or to let me know of any clandestine affairs.
42 guests have already been accomodated so far in the space which is suitable for 24, and another 20 are waiting in their beer cups at the bar. As in other years, the plan is to move avid campers as well as those who don't demonstrate their intention to pay, out into a patio, bus shelter, walled city, converted shed or other extension that doesn't technically exist. Luckily there are more immediate things to worry about, such as the quality of the bedding and whether the guests are happy, and of course, detective work to see if anyone is using a fake ID.
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File Type: jpg Rodney-at-HilbertsHotel.JPG (296.3 KB, 213 views)
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Old June 5, 2016   #2
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Default flower colour in the OP's

I borrowed a silver glove from the bandmaster for the first round of pictures, hoping that it would be easier to capture the subtleties than using a white card as I did last year. Not entirely thrilled with the results but it's a start. I also need more flowers to open so that I can check carefully the colour stages.
A few of the early flowering guests are OP's, so I'll show those as a reference, for what I should expect.
The "black" flower anther cone as in Owen's Purple is a greenish yellow, and will darken to amber but not the warm orange typical of reds.
Mazarini soon after opening has already a more intense and warmer yellow colour which will darken a warm shade of orange as it ages.
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File Type: jpg is-owenspurple-flrs.JPG (217.7 KB, 210 views)
File Type: jpg is-Mazarini-flrs.JPG (170.1 KB, 212 views)
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Old June 5, 2016   #3
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Default

As in past years, I can't tell the difference between yellow and red fruited flowers. Some reds have a darker yellow to begin with but many start out a clear yellow or even greenish if they open when very immature. Shown here are flowers of V. Desyatku, a yellow, with two stages yellow to orange.
The second flower is Orange Minsk. The intense orange anthers are much darker than a mature red type, or a Beta orange flower, which says this tomato gets its orange fruit from tt tangerine.
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File Type: jpg is-desyatku-flrs.JPG (266.4 KB, 210 views)
File Type: jpg is-OrangeMinsk-flrs.JPG (318.3 KB, 212 views)
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Old June 5, 2016   #4
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Default Skipper and Rodney F2's

These are two sibling black selections from a four parent F1 I showed last year. The flower colour is true to type for both of them. I started four Rodneys (radish shaped in the F1) and six Skippers (mini beef F1) and expected to see segregation for size in both of them this generation. What I'm seeing on the basis of bud size/shape and petal number is that the size segregation is skewing towards small size in the Skippers (small normal pointed buds, five petal flowers, only one 6 petal flower so far) and towards large size in the Rodneys - three of four with fat buds and seven to 12 petals).
These are also segregating for earliness, with two earliest in each line flowering at 51 to 54 days, the others flowering a week or more later than their early sibs.
There is a small chance of a determinate segregant, from one allele in the four parent cross, so I'm watching for growth habit as well, and making note of the relative height of the plants at flowering time (short or tall). Both Skipper and Rodney were "short" compared to their F1 siblings.
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File Type: jpg is-Rodney-F2-1-flrs.JPG (267.6 KB, 206 views)
File Type: jpg is-Rodney-F2-2-flrs.JPG (277.0 KB, 212 views)
File Type: jpg is-skipper-f2-normalsize-flrs.JPG (316.2 KB, 206 views)
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Old June 5, 2016   #5
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Default Kitten Paws F3

This line is the RL pink mini-beef selected last year from a cross of Stupice and Black Cherry. All six plants have gorgeous big flowers with 7,9,10 to 13 petals, and cluster size 7 to 10. Certainly none of them are leaning towards cherry size.
Recessive alleles were after all lurking in the F2. One of six F3's is a PL. And one of six has a black type flower, which tells me that the gf allele may have also contributed to the dark green of the immature F2 fruit and their great taste.
These are also segregating for earliness - a 50/50 split between 51 and 57 days to flower.
Pink(same as red) type flowers shown first, and then the black type flower.
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File Type: jpg is-KP-F3-flrs.JPG (312.1 KB, 202 views)
File Type: jpg is-KP-F3-blk.JPG (282.2 KB, 204 views)
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Old June 5, 2016   #6
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Default Winter Sky F3

As with the Kitten Paws, the next generation of Winter Sky is telling me that the dark green colour in the F2 immature fruit was resulting to some extent from a gf allele, in this half-Beta orange red heart selection from Zolotoe Serdtse X Indian Stripe. Among the early flowering there is one with a distinctly black type flower. My pictures from last year suggest that the Beta colour shows in the anthers early on, at least as a high intensity warm yellow - I will have to wait for more flowers to open to verify the Beta stages. I'm hoping to find a full Beta/Beta determinate among this year's seven plants, but pretty excited to see a black whether it has Beta in the mix or not.
Earliness is closer to being fixed in this line, with 5 of 7 plants flowering at 49-53 days.
Height differences at flower are also being watched here. In the F2, a "tall" turned out to have the sp/sp semideterminate growth habit. Winter Sky was a short one.
The flower of the earliest is shown below, a typical beta (?or red) type, and the flower I expect to be a black.
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File Type: jpg is-WS-F3-1.JPG (314.7 KB, 201 views)
File Type: jpg is-WS-F3-yellowanthers.JPG (140.0 KB, 199 views)

Last edited by bower; June 5, 2016 at 10:23 AM. Reason: forgot the photos!
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Old June 5, 2016   #7
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Default Sundog F3

These Sundog F3's are also true to type with the gf/gf flower and many petals typical of a large beef. I couldn't resist starting a half dozen of them, in hopes of finding a full Beta determinate orange-black. I think they are quite cold tolerant so I expect to move them to the "camping" section when we are safely ahem frost free.
As I found last year, the effect of gf/gf on flower colour overrides any indication of Beta, so I will have to wait for ripe fruit to find who has or doesn't still have one Beta allele, but once I see the terminal bud determinate growth habit I'll know I found the full Beta, which is linked. At that point the other bears will be shooed outside for sure, no matter what 'summer' is like.
These are also segregating for earliness with 2 of 6 earlier to flower at 49 and 51 days. The third is about to flower, and all three of these were also the shortest plants at time of flowering. So I hope the black Beta is among em.
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Old June 5, 2016   #8
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Default

Thanks for posting this. I remember reading through your thread, maybe last fall and think I've got to use this. I'm mainly growing OPs so I should have plenty of known end colors to try to practice with. I've got 1 F2 plant and some F3 microdwarfs. I'm thinking I'm not looking at a large enough range of flowers--from just open to been open for a while.

We'll see how it goes, but my initial guess is I have 4 purple/black microdwarf F3s and 1 red or yellow. My guess on my F2 plant for the dwarf project is purple/black, but perhaps the open flowers are all still too young to know. It is some really subtle differences, I look forward to more of your posts.
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Old June 5, 2016   #9
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After re-reading and looking some more at my flowers--it is more how the 'bottom' 2/3 of the anther cones look and how they look relative to the flower petal color that matters? My above predictions likely need revising if that is the case.
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Old June 5, 2016   #10
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Default crossed Beist B1-15 F3

I only started two of these Black Early X Indian Stripe, to see if the earliness and productivity were fixed and if so, bring it on another generation while my friend is growing out another dozen of the F2's. Only one has flowered early, the cluster configurations are not a match, and the flowers shown below are a red-type I believe with warm orange colour at maturity, so I think this seed lot was crossed. Sadly both plants also seem to have inherited sensitivity to cold temperatures from the mystery parent, since both of them purpled severely after a couple of frosty nights when the temperature went down to 44F - no other plants were so affected.
Worst of all, I didn't save different seed lots separately. Either I have to grow a lot of them to find the uncrossed, or I have to go back to the F2 and start over.
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Old June 5, 2016   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsieglaff View Post
After re-reading and looking some more at my flowers--it is more how the 'bottom' 2/3 of the anther cones look and how they look relative to the flower petal color that matters? My above predictions likely need revising if that is the case.
Yes, in a lot of cases there's a greenish tip on the anthers that is retained, and makes it still more confusing. The anthers on the bottom 2/3 then have to be the key.
I also think there are other colour modifiers besides the major ones, that may affect flower colour in certain lines. There are reds that have almost an orange hue in the anthers as soon as they open, but many start out as a 'clear yellow' and the same shade as the petals. And I did see some opening when still immature and looking downright greenish, but it quickly turns a warmer shade. The key seems to be, to watch the flower as it matures, for the warm shades vs staying greenish and at most an 'amber' mix of greenish-orange in the final stage.

I should also apologize that it's very difficult to capture the nuances of colour in photos, as they change in every light. I'll be looking at a lot of flowers where there's any doubt, to see if my observations were affected by the light. Will be switching back to a white background - and a dull cloudy day - in future.

Last edited by bower; June 5, 2016 at 11:11 AM. Reason: add
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Old June 5, 2016   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bower View Post
Yes, in a lot of cases there's a greenish tip on the anthers that is retained, and makes it still more confusing. The anthers on the bottom 2/3 then have to be the key.
I also think there are other colour modifiers besides the major ones, that may affect flower colour in certain lines. There are reds that have almost an orange hue in the anthers as soon as they open, but many start out as a 'clear yellow' and the same shade as the petals. And I did see some opening when still immature and looking downright greenish, but it quickly turns a warmer shade. The key seems to be, to watch the flower as it matures, for the warm shades vs staying greenish and at most an 'amber' mix of greenish-orange in the final stage.
Thanks! That's a bummer on your crossed seed, at least you still have F2 seed from the sound of it.

Would GWR/black tomato have similar flower colors due to presence of gf/gf?
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Old June 5, 2016   #13
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Default a bicolour OP

I have one picture of the flowers of Oaxaca Jewel PL - first time looking at the flowers of a bicolour. They have the greenish tip as you mentioned and started out looking very much like a black, This pic doesn't show well the lower part of the anther where the warmest orange is obvious and IMO the flower type is like yellow and red - can't tell them apart. Will keep looking as more flowers develop.
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Old June 5, 2016   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsieglaff View Post
Thanks! That's a bummer on your crossed seed, at least you still have F2 seed from the sound of it.

Would GWR/black tomato have similar flower colors due to presence of gf/gf?
I haven't confirmed but I expect that GWR would be indistinguishable from black. Last year the combination of gf/gf at least with one Beta allele, looked the same as a plain black.

If you look at the flower colour thread, there was research posted that showed differences between yellow and red type flowers too. This makes me think that modifiers affect the outcome in certain lines, and that there's plenty more to be learned by careful observation of the larger pool of tomato varieties.
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Old June 5, 2016   #15
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Default the first paying guest - Hope's Early F3

This is my last pic from this round of data. I didn't get a shot of Hope's Early F3 flowers, because this little sweetheart has already pushed out the fruit. Flowers are red (or yellow) type, the first one flowered at 46 days and very promptly set fruit at 52 days. I am only keeping the earliest one of these, although there are a couple of extras that may or may not find accomodations. There is a possibility of yellow fruit in this line - which was interesting in both F1 and F2 for ripening yellow through orange and then red.
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