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Old November 3, 2016   #1
rubbe87
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Default Which tomato has the most diverse DNA?

Would crossing wild species whit each other increase genetic diversity and would there be benefits? Has there been such attempts?
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Old November 3, 2016   #2
Worth1
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I have no idea but plants aren't people/animals and it is sometimes hard to make that realization.
Crossing can create hybrid vigor or create the worst of both species or strains.
With a hybrid self pollinating tomato it is a one shot deal if you cant stabilize it.
Right now I have two hybrid agave and I have no idea if the seeds from them would produce the same thing as most are just clones or collections of pups from the original cross.


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Old November 3, 2016   #3
Fred Hempel
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http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html
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Old November 3, 2016   #4
dmforcier
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Speaking of "genetic diversity" within a single species/variety is an oxymoron.

It is what it is, not what it is not.
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Old November 3, 2016   #5
Fred Hempel
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If you are saying that "species" can not be diverse, I completely disagree. There is considerable genetic diversity within species, and some species are much more diverse than others. No species is uniform genetically, except when there is only one individual left in a species.

If you are using "species" as synonymous with "true-breeding variety" that is a mis-use of the term "species"

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Speaking of "genetic diversity" within a single species/variety is an oxymoron.

It is what it is, not what it is not.
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Old November 3, 2016   #6
dmforcier
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Did you miss my use of the word variety?
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Old November 3, 2016   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmforcier View Post
Did you miss my use of the word variety?
I didn't miss your use of the word variety and I agree completely with Fred.

How many times have you seen me and others post to never save seeds off just one plant of a variety,better two plants,even better three plants,etc.

There are SUBTLE mutations happening all the time with almost all varieties, DNA is not static,hence,preserving the genetic diversity within a variety.

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Old November 4, 2016   #8
Fred Hempel
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Yes. Your writing species/variety is incorrect. It implies that they are the same. They are not.

All varieties of tomatoes are a part of the same, single, species.


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Did you miss my use of the word variety?
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Old November 4, 2016   #9
dmforcier
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Oh back off. That was shorthand for "variety, a subset of species".

So, do you believe that the poster is asking which variety has the highest incidence of mutation?

If it's not that, then what does the question mean?
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Old November 4, 2016   #10
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Anyone want decaf? Jimbo
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Old November 4, 2016   #11
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Must be late in the fall, everyone is getting grouchy. Grouchy is not impressed and wants all to keep hands off!

I'm going to give a bit better explanation. Think of a species as a set of programs that work together. Over a lot of time, those programs have been more or less optimized to continue producing the life form they code for. Cross that species with another life form, even if it is closely related, and a lot of those optimizations are going to be disabled. But that isn't the end of the story.

Sometimes one species has a program (gene) that another lacks. What if we could lift that gene out and insert it into the other species. Cross breeding can do this. We can move a gene for nematode tolerance out of a wild species and into the domestic tomato. Now we have almost all of our original tomato programs (genes) complete, but we added a new gene that codes for disease tolerance.

So to partially answer your question, increasing diversity for the sake of increasing diversity usually just breaks a lot of genetic programs. Targeted gene transfer from one species to another can add new capabilities and enhance another species.

Tomatoes - meaning the domesticated species - have very little genetic diversity. Crossing them with a wild species has the potential to improve production, disease tolerance, regional adaptation, and many other traits.
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Old November 4, 2016   #12
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The real question is whether or not it tastes good.
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Old November 4, 2016   #13
Fred Hempel
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The poster asked about species, and that is what I assumed they meant. Particularly because they asked about which "wild species" might be best to use.

I do not think the question was about incidence of mutation.

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Originally Posted by dmforcier View Post
Oh back off. That was shorthand for "variety, a subset of species".

So, do you believe that the poster is asking which variety has the highest incidence of mutation?


If it's not that, then what does the question mean?
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Old November 4, 2016   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmforcier View Post
Oh back off. That was shorthand for "variety, a subset of species".

So, do you believe that the poster is asking which variety has the highest incidence of mutation?

If it's not that, then what does the question mean?
Here was the original question

(Would crossing wild species whit each other increase genetic diversity and would there be benefits? Has there been such attempts?)

As the thread got longer other info as to genetic diversity was introduced in addition to crossing with wild species, not specified, and I for one,have no problems with that at all.

So no,the original question was not asking about the incidence of mutation,as I just said, the thread got off track,and why not since using germplasm from wild species is not the only way to be associated with genetic diversity.

My major growing field formanyyears was 250 ft long and 90 ft wide,rows 5 ft apart, and I'd go down the rows recording first blossom,first fruitset,indet or det,leaf form,first color on fruits,first ripe fruits, for each variety in my notebook.

But I never looked at the so called small details of a given variety.

One day I was at a website where Keith Mueller, I knew him from elsewhere, and this subject of diversity came up and he started discussing different internode lenghths, subtle changes in leaf form,time of ripening and more. I looked and he was right.

And well I remember what he said to me...something like those changes are there to see for those who have eyes.

Fusion here knows Keith well,so do I, he knows LOTS about tomato genetics and has also bred some very popular varieties.He got his MS degree with Dr.Randy Gardner at NCSU,one of the best breeders ever.

Here is Keith's website: I didn't take the time to see if he has any new updates.

http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/

You can spend hours there,as many of us have,checking out all that he shares with others.

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Old November 7, 2016   #15
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This thread has had some great answers -- but it might be worth mentioning one of the techniques used by Fred Pritchard that relates to harvesting benefits of genetic diversity -- if you're interested in century old work.

He was the person at the USDA who in 1918 developed the tomato Marvel from Merveille des Marches and crossed it with Livingstone's Globe to create the famous Marglobe -- which was very important in the 1930's because of greatly improved disease tolerance as well as high quality production for commercial and home uses -- and which is ancestor to many modern varieties.

(Pritchard also developed many other valuable varieties of tomato.)

He compared parent-candidate varieties for intravarietal variation with respect to the property he wanted to introduce or intensify, then worked by selection with a candidate variety that had high intravarietal variation to create a new variety with the target trait more prominently and consistently present. Often, he then crossed that new variety with other varieties that had complementary traits, stabilized the cross and released the new market variety.

I think that has practical application for the many home gardeners who attempt to develop an improved version of some variety by selection -- for earliness drought tolerance, etc . That is, before investing -- and possibly wasting -- many generations selecting, it might be wise to spend a season growing a large number of the variety they want to improve, determine whether it has a lot of intravarietal variation with respect to the target property and if not, use another variety, or use crossing techniques instead of or prior to using selection to achieve an improved variety.

Below is one place Pritchard discusses some of his work. Note that his work was utilitarian rather than theoretical or research oriented -- his goal being to produce tomatoes with desired traits as fast as possible and get them out to growers to grow or to further develop.
--------------------------

https://ia801703.us.archive.org/11/i...il1015prit.pdf


BULLETIN 1015, U. S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. March 28, 1922

DEVELOPMENT OF WILT-RESISTANT TOMATOES.

By Fred J. Pritchard, Physiologist, Office of Cotton, Truck, and Forage Crop
Disease Investigations.
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