Micro-organisms

[Blueaussi]

Originally Posted by igarden

from what i understand, all the ingredients one uses to make the LB and the EM/BIM from Gil's article are natural.

Fusarium Wilt is natural. It's pathogenic instead of beneficial, but it's natural.

[habitat_gardener]

I see all these potions as backyard science. You read about something or come up with an idea on your own, you test it out, and you see if it works in your garden. The ones based on rice are "natural" as opposed to, say, some hucksters that suggest using toxins such as mothballs. (I, personally, would not use milk products on my garden, just as I would not ingest them.)

I don't see any problem with someone asking, hey, has anyone tried this stuff, and what did you notice? Experimenting and observing: the basics of science. This rooting-around stage, which comes before the rigorous tests with controls and peer review, is an important part of discovery.

But so far I've seen only "shoulds" and arm waving, debates about who's drunk the coolaid and who hasn't, and vague statements about trying some unidentified substance and seeing overnight results -- which does indeed sound questionable.

So I'm interested in specifics. What did you use on what plant, what were you attempting to fix, what results did you observe?

[Blueaussi]

The problem with casual observations is that correlation does not equal causation. Look how many people insist that applying lime after BER appears cures the problem.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by habitat_gardener

But so far I've seen only "shoulds" and arm waving, debates about who's drunk the coolaid and who hasn't, and vague statements about trying some unidentified substance and seeing overnight results -- which does indeed sound questionable.

So I'm interested in specifics. What did you use on what plant, what were you attempting to fix, what results did you observe?

As I'm, the one who threw the mucky at the fan, perhaps I should kick it off.
My garden has suffered with a slow decline over the past few years so I decided this year to adopt a different approach, going green. Well the chemicals didn't improve matters one bit.
I have been making quality compost over a few years, I also started a worm farm to handle all the kitchen waste, so had the necessary to make ACT which I started earlier this year.
Things I have noticed after spraying this over everything a number of times during the growing season.
Much better root crops. Carrots and parsnips have never been as good.
Brassicas are good, first real sized brussel sprouts from top to bottom of the stalk. Broccoli were good, but the Cauilflower not so.
Interesting, I didn't suffer with Cabbage white butterflies this year, they just ignored the plants..
My fruit trees haven't suffered with Leaf roller caterpillars, if they hatched they quickly stopped feeding and dried up. I believe I have cured Apple scab on my Macintosh. My indoor plants and greenhouse suffered with Fungus gnats, no more after a couple of sprays.
My raspberries canes are huge, over 7 feet tall, and the fruit were super, even the blueberries had a good crop.
Tomatoes were a bit hit and miss, early blight was a problem and I lost some plants to bacterial wilt, but a couple of early girls were over 6 feet and had huge crops.
I would like to improve the overall quality of my soil, it's mainly sand with low OM, so this fall I've added tons of well rotted sawdust over the whole garden, plus two loads on Municipal Compost. I would like to use BIM/EM to ensure I have the correct type of bacteria.
I have had a soil test done. Thought I was short of calcium. but in fact it was short Magnesium, which I understand both of these go hand in hand. I also have Ph 7.7 which needs pronto treatment.
I would suggest a soil test to all, I was way off base with my suspicions.
Comments anyone?

[Barbee]

I agree with you 100% on the soil test. You just need to know what you're dealing with before you can try to fix it. As for the IBM/EM, I just really don't know much about it. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why spraying something on your plants would improve the tilth of your soil...which in my opinion, is the secret to growing good plants. If you add compost that had been composted on your own ground, wouldn't that be introducing the local bacteria you're trying to get?
Does that make sense?

[Blueaussi]

Originally Posted by Barbee

If you add compost that had been composted on your own ground, wouldn't that be introducing the local bacteria you're trying to get?
Does that make sense?

That's the way it seems to me. However, I think, and I may have this wrong, those who are trying to add EM/BIM organisms are preparing solutions that are supposed to boost the beneficial organisms and prevent growth of pathogens. The solution, when applied to the garden soil is supposed to give a boost to the growth of beneficials , which in turn crowd out and/or inhibit pathogenic organisms.

When plants are sprayed with the EM/BIM solutions, pathogenic organisms are supposedly prevented from infecting the plants because the EM/BIM organisms either grow on the leaves and stems and crowd out any pathogens or because the EM/BIM solution makes the plants so amazingly healthy they fight off the pathogens. At least, that's what I think the theory is, I get a little confused, different practitioners have made different claims.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by Barbee

. If you add compost that had been composted on your own ground, wouldn't that be introducing the local bacteria you're trying to get?
Does that make sense?

Yes, but only if you have sufficient compost to spread approx 2 inches deep overall. In my case I don't have that sort of volume, so spraying ACT will spread a thin layer on the plants.
Then of course you can, and I have, used a soil drench when watering the garden. So my soil has been getting a double dose.
Bear in mind, your ACT is only as good as the worm casts or compost you use. If there is anything missing in either of them, then obviously it will be missing in your ACT you add to the plants!
I am trying to find the missing parts of the puzzle.

[Barbee]

Blue, thanks for the reply, that helps me to understand better. I guess if you have disease issues it would be worth experimenting to see if you could come up with a recipe for success.

[Barbee]

Beeman,
Now that makes sense if you don't have enough compost. Also, I think you said earlier you had sandy soil...which I think would be the hardest to improve.
So is your idea to continue to ammend your garden with compost, etc, and supplement with the ACT until your soil is corrected?

[beeman]

Originally Posted by Barbee

Beeman,
Now that makes sense if you don't have enough compost. Also, I think you said earlier you had sandy soil...which I think would be the hardest to improve.
So is your idea to continue to ammend your garden with compost, etc, and supplement with the ACT until your soil is corrected?

I believe there are two major points to the equation. To improve the soil and to combat the nasties on the plants.
When the soil is up to par, in other words it will grow well, compaction has gone, and a soil test gives me all the answers to good growing conditions. Then I will be able to concentrate more on foliar spraying, possibly less frequently than I do now.

[Barbee]

Could you use a cover crop for winter then spray it in the early spring with your spray you're making to introduce your bacteria into the soil?
I know the giant pumpkin growers are using myco on the cover crop to introduce it to the patch.

[igarden]

Originally Posted by amideutch

The question is, with Lactobacillies there are approximately 125 species. Which one are we talking about?

i am still learning more and more each day as i study this. i have only made the LB from rice and washed rice water. i don't know which species it is, but it works for me. i know that i am creating microorganisms that are aiding the plant in growth through soil and foliar feedings. the concoctions are to create health in the plants and the one i tried so far has.

from what i undertand, Lactobacillus is a major part of the lactic acid bacteria group, whom most convert lactose and other sugars to lactic acid, and, are supposed to be common and mostly benign.

i suppose, perhaps, the species might depend also on what one uses. for instance, when making the EM/BIM, one would use cucumbers to improve cucumber plants' health and melons for watermelon plants' vigor and peach skins for peach trees and so on.

The only time I've seen a plant flourish overnight was when I watered it after missing a day.

me too before i tried this homemade LB! i will take pictures next spring for you. can't wait to see what the homemade EM/BIM does!

As far as the anti commercial references these companies are the one's that spend the big bucks to purchase the needed test equipment to do the research on the Rhizobacteria we are talking about. They have a right to reap the fruits of their labor like anybody else in a capitalist system or go bust if they don't. Ami

i still don't understand why we need to buy products when we can make our own? sure, we don't have fancy equipment or maybe know the names of the microbes, but, if it works, why not? i am so amazed at all the reports coming out from here and other countries and on many many forums experimenting with the homemade recipes of Gil C's and such as successes.

like he stated...

"By learning how to cultivate microorganisms, growers become able to meet their needs with what exists on the farm and can stop buying amendments from chemical companies (purveyors who, some might argue, are the real peddlers in modern farming). The technology was born of ingenuity, but it has spread by financial necessity, primarily among farmers in developing countries for whom agricultural chemicals are painfully expensive."

then again, many people who garden might not have the time or space to do these homemade concoctions and purchasing would be eaasier.........

[beeman]

Originally Posted by igarden

i still don't understand why we need to buy products when we can make our own? sure, we don't have fancy equipment or maybe know the names of the microbes, but, if it works, why not?

My view entirely. I was fast approaching the $1000 tomato, so I had to curb my spending. Making my own was the best thing I did, now I know I don't have to buy the stuff peddled by the snake oil salesman.
Here is a question? I make cheese during the winter, and part of the process produces large quantities of whey, same as from Yogurt, up to 2 gallons of the stuff. Suppose I made up the LB from it, and applied it at full strength? Would it do any damage, as the suggestions are to use it at 1-20 dilution.
If I was to use the suggested strength I would have some 40 gallons of product to use. I could spray the neighborhood.

[Blueaussi]

What happens when you scoop up a bacteria or fungus that's pathogenic to tomatoes or peppers, nurture it so its numbers explode, and then you spray it on your garden?

[beeman]

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

What happens when you scoop up a bacteria or fungus that's pathogenic to tomatoes or peppers, nurture it so its numbers explode, and then you spray it on your garden?

This is why it's important to follow the rules.
Also it's why it's suggested you use 'Finished Thermal Compost' wherever possible, the 'Thermal' treatment destroys any pathogens.