Growing Beans - How Much, When, and How close?

[Petronius_II]

I've seen photos of whatever variety somebody or another (a charlatan, if you ask me) was marketing as "1500 Year Old Cave Bean." They're not at all the same variety as Anasazi Pole Bean, which is a vigorous grower whose dry beans are almost identical to those of the bush bean Jacob's Cattle.

...Or at least can be a vigorous grower under the right conditions. Obviously, all I can know is how well it does in a dry climate with long, warm or hot summers. l don't know for sure if it would tolerate "hot AND humid" so well, but it would be nice to find out.

Unfortunately, as I wrote above, there's been some apparent cross-breeding, or maybe somebody passing off Jacob's Cattle as Anasazi, and the only way one can be pretty sure of getting the vigorous pole strain is to buy beans from Dove Creek-- or somebody who has descendants of Dove Creek seed stock, which is what I hope to be in a season or two. I did write "unfortunately" above because I hate to patronize people with the gall to try to trademark a varietal name for an open-pollinated heirloom. I'm almost certain the Dove Creek people just "discovered" the variety they named Anasazi, much the same way Columbus quote "discovered" unquote the Americas. I'm pretty sure Dove Creek did nothing in particular to improve Anasazi.

The bulk foods manager at the food co-op sort of feels the same way.

...But in any case, "1500 Year Old Cave Bean" (cough, cough) isn't the same bean.

[EDITED TO ADD:] I see now the name of the company with the trademark is Adobe Milling. Dove Creek, Colorado is the town.

[Fusion_power]

Petronius, The rest of the story is that bakers creek carried 1500 year old cave bean about 8 years ago. I bought a pack from them in 2004. The beans were flat, shaped like a small lima, somewhat maroon speckled on a white background. They grew nice vines but did not set any beans. My climate is all wrong for them.

So with that said, there is a bean sometimes called Anasazi, but it looks almost identical to Zuni Red. There is a bean called Jacob's Cattle which is a nice productive bush bean. There is a small flat lima shaped bean called 1500 year old cave bean. Then there is a faux who knows what bean that is called 1500 year old cave bean but that is close to the bean named Anasazi. I haven't tried to straighten this mess out.

DarJones

[Jeannine Anne]

Just a hopeful long shot..but is anyone out there growing genuine Greek Gigantes beans, aka Gigandes. I lost my stash this last year and cannot find true replacements, my original ones from many years ago came from Greece. I have seen "gigantes beans " but not the size of my original Elephant Gigantes. I would so much like to find a few to begin again. they are actually a white runner bean and are very very big.

XX Jeannine

[Fusion_power]

Like these?

http://purcellmountainfarms.com/Gigandes.htm


See the runner beans
http://www.selectedplants.com/SeedInventory.htm

I'm not certain if these are genuine Gigandes, they are very similar to a large lima bean. They are HUGE.

DarJones

[jgaleota]

Fusion,

Have you ever grown Peregion dry bean? I just bought it on an impulse, based on a catalog description.

Judi

[Fusion_power]

I did some more digging around and found hints here and there about Gigandes beans. For beginners, the bean identified as Gigandes on Purcellmountainfarms is clearly a lima similar to Big Mama as sold by Burpees.

http://www.burpee.com/vegetables/bea...rod000574.html

From one source, there are 5 different varieties grown and sold as Gigandes. From another source, they can't be legally sold in Europe unless grown in a specific region of Greece. From a third source, some links showing what is supposed to be varieties that can be grown as Gigandes.

http://www.seedsofitaly.com/product/269

And this one looks like the real deal.

http://www.rizosonline.co.uk/index.p...products_id=43

Here is a thread discussing them.

http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/...;topic=55025.0

DarJones

[Jeannine Anne]

Hi Fusion, I have the ones from Purcell farms and also have had the Seeds from Italy ones,although they are Gigantesd neither are the size of the ones I am looking for. They are runners by the way not limas.

My original ones came from Greece and were the ones rated as Elephantes as they are the biggest variation but as you say they cannot be sold as Gigandes outside of their own area so it is extremely difficult to find replacements. I am also familiar with the chat on the other forum.

I bought beans from a Greek deli store here, they were genuine imported Greek gigandes but not the really extra big ones either,they were about an inch long though and I figured I would try them anyway but I could not get them to germinate. They were bigger than Purcell and Seeds from Italy though.

They are a runner bean for sure, not a lima as I know it, but as the word lima(and butter bean) means different things in different parts of the world it is difficult to explain that.

Sadly, there are several large white runners which are claimed to be re named Gigantes but so far I cannot find the size again.

Just as a bench mark, when the beans have been fully soaked they are an inch and half long easily.

I guess I need another trip to Greece, or a pen pal maybe ..

I appreciate the help offered very much

Thank you XX Jeannine

[Fusion_power]

It took a LOT of digging, but I finally found a greek place that will ship Gigandes beans to the U.S. They are expensive, but I'm intrigued enough that I want to cook up a pot of them and see what they are like.

As a side note, I have some gigantic white runner beans that may be the same thing as the gigandes, but I don't have many of them and I would really like to try the beans, not just grow them.

I'll let you know when I receive the package which could take up to 3 weeks.

DarJones

[Petronius_II]

Not sure these would interest you or not. They're not the Greek runners and not really flattened, more long ovoid like a giant borlotto bean... Anyhoo, what I'm getting around to saying is, Native Seeds/SEARCH has some really honkin' huge runner beans:

https://www.nativeseeds.org/index.ph...s/runner-beans

[recruiterg]

I know this may sound like a stupid question, but what exactly is a runner bean.

[jgaleota]

O.K. Me too. I have always wanted to ask.............

[Fusion_power]

Ok, have fun with this. There are a LOT of twists to this story.

The bean family is divided up into about 50 species.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaseolus

Among them is Phaseolus Vulgaris - the common bean we grow and eat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_bean

Among other beans that we eat is Phaseolus Lunatus - the Lima group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaseolus_lunatus

And another that is grown in some areas where the climate is conducive is Phaseolus Coccineus - the runner bean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner_bean

The runner bean originated in Mexico but is not adapted to high temperatures. It is from high elevations typically growing and producing only at elevations of roughly 1 mile or more. It is adapted to cooler climate areas and is relatively day neutral compared to most tropical plants.

The plants are rampant and vigorous vining plants but there are bush varieties and there are half-runner types. The flowers are stupendous ranging from white to pink, shades of orange, red-orange, and brilliant scarlet.

While most runner beans cannot be grown in high temperatures such as here in North Alabama, I have been able to get a crop from Insuk's Wang Kong that approaches normal. This was done by planting the runner beans very early on the north side of a very tall row of corn, and encoraging very rapid growth. I was very happy to see them flowering and then setting beans in my garden.

DarJones

[Petronius_II]

To the best of my recollection, from having a great experience years ago growing generic "Scarlet Runner" seeds from Northrup King or some such, it's not so much a matter of not growing during hot weather. It's a matter of flowering. They most likely won't flower much until the weather cools down.

My runner beans got shade during part of the day, too. Backyard gardeners who want to experiment with runner beans would do well to consider putting up a trellis close to a wall or fence that runs north-south and will shade the beans for almost half the day. If a concrete etc. wall that will absorb heat and give back, I would advise putting the beans on the east side of any such wall, and several feet away.

I doubt that altitude per se necessarily has all that much effect. But then, I live in "the Other Mile High City," so what do I know?

My Scarlet Runners were trellised onto a wooden fence about 5 1/2 feet high to the top of the trellis. When they got to the top, they just flopped down in front and kept on growing, almost back to the ground for some vines. Seeds planted about 4 inches apart, kept well watered and never pruned. With that close spacing, they formed something resembling a dense, flat hedge. Gorgeous whenever a lot of flowers were in bloom at the same time. The beans get pretty fibrous at the larger sizes.

[Jeannine Anne]

Hi Fusio..ha ha, so I have peeked your curiosity, I am well pleased.I will keep my fingers crossed that they germinate for you and hopefully they may even be the really big ones. I have just about given up searching for them now and wiol have to ne contaent woth regular size gigandes I suspect.

My fave thing to cook is the traditional Gigandes Plaki, lots of recipes around but I will send you mine if you get stuck. I just adore them cooked in this traditional way and the recipe makes a great buffet dish served at room temp.Sometimes I will add some thin sliced smoked sausage but that is totally against tradition, and sometimes I make them a bit hot with an extra chili bite which changes them again..but the basic Plaki is probably best. I would love to know how you get

I do find when I buy the dry deli beans they are often cracked and damaged which is one reasin I prefer to grow them myself so you may want to find a few perfect ones and have a go an germinating them.

I have a good collection of runner bean varieties, this year I am planting a mixed row, all differnt colured blossom, they will grow to about 10 feet reliably so it should be quite a show. I have black seeded ones, white and multi.

Half runners are not true runner beans for anyone new to them. There are two really easy ways of being sure. 1. The first leaves up when sown are true leaves, the cotyledons remain under the ground which is very differnet to other beans and it something that can ve seen very early on. 2, When viewed from above they twine clockwise, other beans twine anto clockwise, so they can be easily seen when growing if you are not sure what you have.

They are perennial in some areas although it has never worked for me in Canada or the UK, and the roots which are like little tubers are edible but as yet I have not eaten them. They are best picked young as they do get fibrous as they get very large.

They make a truly wonderful display and are worth growing for the show alone.

They are self pollinating by the way, but need "tripping" in order to so do, usually a bee or humming bird etc landing on them is enough but they don't need the bees to pollinate them. In fact the bees can be a nuisance as they have been known tyo nibble through the enclosed flower to get to the nectar and by doing so allowing them to cross pollinate with other runner varieties.

I love runner beans and hve been building up me collection of varieties for a long time, always happy to hear from anyone to swap by the way.

As thr thread stared about spacing etc it is appropriate here to say about 4-6 inches apart for pole runner beans. The few varieties that are not tall growing are very dwarf and can be closer palnted even in pots.


Maybe we should have a runner bean thread?

PS sorry fot the typhos but I am ill in bed and struggling a bit.
XX Jeannine

[Tormato]

Jeannine Anne,

I have only a couple of gigandes, and last year they did not germinate, for me. I'm going to try the rest of them this year.

These things are so large, I've heard that some people bread them before baking.

Gary