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Old August 15, 2018   #31
PaulF
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Thumbs up to you Imp. You are able be the voice of reason in a contentious discussion.
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Old August 16, 2018   #32
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I heard on the radio about this stuff and how it can be detected in the urine of children and others.
From eating products like cheerios and so on..
Have no idea of the validity of the information.
It wasn't NPR or some predominately left wing station I heard this on.
It said the person in question did this for 20 years for a school district and was doused in it several times due to sprayer malfunctions.
BAYER now owns Monsanto and they are the same good people that brought us Zyklon B in a way by way of IG Farben and good old Heroin.

If the corporate word doesn't care about putting thousands if not millions in the poor house by sending labor to China and other third world countries what makes anyone think they would give a hoot about anyone.

The EPA, OSHA, Unions, living wadges, compliance and greed has killed jobs in America and in Europe with what ever laws they have.
We want it cheap and we want it now regardless of how many poor slobs it kills some place else.
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Old August 16, 2018   #33
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Originally Posted by Worth1 View Post
I heard on the radio about this stuff and how it can be detected in the urine of children and others.
From eating products like cheerios and so on..
Have no idea of the validity of the information.
It wasn't NPR or some predominately left wing station I heard this on.
It said the person in question did this for 20 years for a school district and was doused in it several times due to sprayer malfunctions.
BAYER now owns Monsanto and they are the same good people that brought us Zyklon B in a way by way of IG Farben and good old Heroin.

If the corporate word doesn't care about putting thousands if not millions in the poor house by sending labor to China and other third world countries what makes anyone think they would give a hoot about anyone.

The EPA, OSHA, Unions, living wadges, compliance and greed has killed jobs in America and in Europe with what ever laws they have.
We want it cheap and we want it now regardless of how many poor slobs it kills some place else.

You must mean studies like these one of which was done by our own corrupt FDA


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/carey..._12252824.html


https://www.ewg.org/childrenshealth/.../#.W3Qe1ehKj-g


The U.S. Food and Drug Administration, which is quietly starting to test certain foods for residues of a weed killing chemical linked to cancer, has found the residues in a variety of oat products, including plain and flavored oat cereals for babies.
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Old August 16, 2018   #34
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Obviously, the opinion that matters in this particular situation is that of the 12 jurors who had the intimate details of the case.
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Old August 16, 2018   #35
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It's sad to hear about Roundup in breakfast cereals but why would anyone think that residue would NOT be in the plants that it is sprayed on or in the soil?

Lets not forget about arsenic in rice or rice cereal for babies either.

Spraying all of these chemicals may make our food cheaper but at what price to our health?

Realistically the best thing that I can do is to limit my consumption of processed foods and garden organically. I can't change the situation by not buying seeds from Monsanto owned companies or even suing them although I don't blame people who do.
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Old August 16, 2018   #36
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Obviously, the opinion that matters in this particular situation is that of the 12 jurors who had the intimate details of the case.

Yes, great point Coastal and the jury answers that very opinion with the first question the judge reads from the verdict.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3CU-pbOIDw
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Old August 16, 2018   #37
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Originally Posted by imp View Post
You can tell others to post their opinions else where, I guess , but it's a bit odd you point out that this is for "alternatives to chemical ferts and pesticides", but this particular discussion is about round up.



Is that a teeny bit rude to tell another member their opinion can't be here just as yours is or any one else's as long as discussion is polite?


Are only certain members allowed to post in this sub forum and not others ?


I myself use a variety of methods to control problems, some organic, some not, so do you wish to exclude me from this forum?

Hi Imp,
We obviously don't share the same perspective on what is or isn't rude. I will try to explain my point of view.


(1) I find it rude, personally, for my comments to be used as a basis for these ( insulting!) insinuations. Do I think you are rude in making these remarks and questions? Yes I do.



There is nothing in my post to suggest that you or any other member should be excluded from this sub forum. My post said that specific comments, dissing the organic industry and methods, and advocating chemical ag, do not belong in this sub forum.


(2) The comments which I objected to, were comments which I consider to be rude in the context of this sub forum and the organic growers who contribute to the sub forum.


(3) When people repeat their opinions over and over without listening to others, it is rude, in my opinion.

In a civil and constructive discussion, contributors not only comment but also read what others have said, links they have posted, and so on, so that in the process of discussion we all become better informed. No it is not at all offensive if the occasional comment is made without being well aware of the matter being discussed. But it is offensive when the same uninformed comment is made repeatedly, in spite of the fact that evidence to the contrary is the subject being discussed by others. The example I am talking about, is your two posts in this thread in which you place the blame on the man who got cancer, for not following instructions. The evidence being discussed by others is about the company's failure to recommend any suitable precautions. If you still believe the man is to blame for his cancer, fine, say so, but once is enough to express your dissent. "Agree to disagree" requires that you keep it to once, IMO.



(4) It is also rude to hijack a thread in a way that distracts from the subject.

So please don't reply to me about "what is rude" in this thread. I've given you my frank opinions and I hope you can take it constructively as it is intended. If you want to discuss what is rude any further, start a thread about it. If you want to know more about what could be considered rude in an organic sub forum, post it for discussion in this one, or if you want to know in a more general sense, I suggest 2 cents forum.


As for discussion of Roundup or other chemicals in an organic forum, you must understand that people who grow organically have concerns about chems in the environment and food chain, which affects all of us, and should be free to express and discuss that perspective in our own subforum without any contentious argument about it.
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Old August 16, 2018   #38
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Yet I've been hearing, since the '80's at least, that roundup is safe enough to drink just like the scientist says in this article. Safe enough to spray wearing shorts according to my city's lands management office.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/...oore_n_6956034

If that's what people have been told by employers and scientists and they believe it who is really at fault?

In the 90's I was living in the city with my young child... I was already a gardener LOL and had my patch of veggies and flowers and herbs in the back. One day I went out in the back yard and the neighbor (who had a very ostentatious and manicured garden!) was spraying something through the fence into our yard. I said "What are you doing?" and when he looked up he sprayed the stuff all over my bare legs. Turns out he had goutweed that spread into our garden, and now the only way to control it was to kill the stuff in our place as well. About ten feet from my veggies, in the garden where the children play. I asked him not to do that but oh no, it's got to be done! says the old coot. It was a tipping point for me, and I started looking for a place, to move somewhere more rural where I didn't have to worry what was coming through the fence.
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Old August 16, 2018   #39
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I have to admit that bower makes some valid points but I also have to admit that I never realized that this was an organic sub-forum.

I am an organic gardener but when I look at the forum I just pull up New Posts and go down the list and open what looks interesting to me. I don't even think about which forum or sub forum that they are part of.
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Old August 16, 2018   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bower View Post
Hi Imp,
We obviously don't share the same perspective on what is or isn't rude. I will try to explain my point of view.


(1) I find it rude, personally, for my comments to be used as a basis for these ( insulting!) insinuations. Do I think you are rude in making these remarks and questions? Yes I do.



There is nothing in my post to suggest that you or any other member should be excluded from this sub forum. My post said that specific comments, dissing the organic industry and methods, and advocating chemical ag, do not belong in this sub forum.


(2) The comments which I objected to, were comments which I consider to be rude in the context of this sub forum and the organic growers who contribute to the sub forum.


(3) When people repeat their opinions over and over without listening to others, it is rude, in my opinion.

In a civil and constructive discussion, contributors not only comment but also read what others have said, links they have posted, and so on, so that in the process of discussion we all become better informed. No it is not at all offensive if the occasional comment is made without being well aware of the matter being discussed. But it is offensive when the same uninformed comment is made repeatedly, in spite of the fact that evidence to the contrary is the subject being discussed by others. The example I am talking about, is your two posts in this thread in which you place the blame on the man who got cancer, for not following instructions. The evidence being discussed by others is about the company's failure to recommend any suitable precautions. If you still believe the man is to blame for his cancer, fine, say so, but once is enough to express your dissent. "Agree to disagree" requires that you keep it to once, IMO.



(4) It is also rude to hijack a thread in a way that distracts from the subject.

So please don't reply to me about "what is rude" in this thread. I've given you my frank opinions and I hope you can take it constructively as it is intended. If you want to discuss what is rude any further, start a thread about it. If you want to know more about what could be considered rude in an organic sub forum, post it for discussion in this one, or if you want to know in a more general sense, I suggest 2 cents forum.


As for discussion of Roundup or other chemicals in an organic forum, you must understand that people who grow organically have concerns about chems in the environment and food chain, which affects all of us, and should be free to express and discuss that perspective in our own subforum without any contentious argument about it.

I agree, we obviously do not agree on what would be good manners or being rude to others. My intent was not to insult you, but to point out that all members have the right to post in all sub forums, even when told not to post a different view point by another member who is not a Mod.

To tell others where and what they may post stifles open discussions. Censorship of dissenting opinions is not conducive to open discussions and not in the spirit of learning.

I regret that you find my comments offensive, but you simply proved what I said by telling me what and where or how I may post in this sub forum in the post I quoted above .

I have made no attempt to censor or tell you what you may post or discuss, nor have I been "contentious", I simply stated my view point on the subject in polite terms, per the site rules.

I think you did not read my posts correctly; the directions and precautions are on each bottle sold retail, and here in the USA, all companies are required, by law, to have material data handling sheets available for each and every chemical in use on that property, kept in a binder (s) and available to all employees to read.

Even with organic pesticides, if people do not use them according to the precautions and directions, and work in pesticide soaked clothing, when does personal culpability come in? When do people become responsible for their own choices?

Because I may use some different methods other than what you choose to in my garden, does not mean I care about the environment and food chain any less than yourself or others, nor does it make one or the other style of gardening right or wrong. There are no posts from me "dissing" organic methods or industry, nor did I advocate using chemicals - I only stated what I myself may do in my own garden, not that all others must do as I do or that it is the only "right" way to garden.
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Old August 16, 2018   #41
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Default Monsanto Loses Again

California Supreme Court Denies Hearing for Monsanto Challenge to Prop 65

https://www.nrdc.org/media/2018/180816


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Old August 16, 2018   #42
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California Supreme Court Denies Hearing for Monsanto Challenge to Prop 65

https://www.nrdc.org/media/2018/180816





"...Monsanto attacked California voters’ choice to make IARC findings an independent ground for adding carcinogens to the Proposition 65 list and argued that choice was unconstitutional. The trial court rejected Monsanto’s arguments and dismissed the case in 2017; the California Court of Appeal affirmed that judgment in April 2018. "



“Monsanto doesn’t have the right to decide which scientific experts are permitted to inform the public about cancer-causing chemicals." Can I say... finally!!?
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Old August 16, 2018   #43
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"...Monsanto attacked California voters’ choice to make IARC findings an independent ground for adding carcinogens to the Proposition 65 list and argued that choice was unconstitutional. The trial court rejected Monsanto’s arguments and dismissed the case in 2017; the California Court of Appeal affirmed that judgment in April 2018. "



“Monsanto doesn’t have the right to decide which scientific experts are permitted to inform the public about cancer-causing chemicals." Can I say... finally!!?

Yes you can


"California will continue to use the best science available to make sure people in the state understand the dangers of the chemicals they use, whether the chemical companies like it or not," said Kathryn Phillips, Director of Sierra Club California.
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Old August 16, 2018   #44
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I have read here that EPA and FDA are corrupt and dishonest, and therefore we cannot trust the science.

With respect, I think that is nonsense. Both agencies are staffed with thoroughly professional experts who work pretty hard. Most are committed to their agency's mission.

The science does not, in my view, show a causation between Roundup and cancer in humans, despite an enormous exposed population in which even tiny risks should be visible. That is good news for everyone.

I predict that, for that reason, the jury's conclusions will not stand.
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Old August 16, 2018   #45
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I have read here that EPA and FDA are corrupt and dishonest, and therefore we cannot trust the science.

With respect, I think that is nonsense. Both agencies are staffed with thoroughly professional experts who work pretty hard. Most are committed to their agency's mission.

The science does not, in my view, show a causation between Roundup and cancer in humans, despite an enormous exposed population in which even tiny risks should be visible. That is good news for everyone.

I predict that, for that reason, the jury's conclusions will not stand.

You must have missed this recent story then, i could give you a hundred more but i will just post the search page and you can go down the list


Embattled EPA chief Scott Pruitt resigns amid scandals

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-n...05-story.html#


https://duckduckgo.com/?q=EPA+and+FD...&t=ffab&ia=web
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