Tomatoville® Gardening Forums


Notices

Discussion forum for environmentally-friendly alternatives to replace synthetic chemicals and fertilizers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 16, 2018   #46
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 5,769
Default

http://fortune.com/2015/04/15/roundu...hard-to-prove/


"IARC, made the call after nearly a year of reviewing all three types of studies (human, animal and DNA). An independent group of scientists evaluated glyphosate’s toxic potential and came to the conclusion that it’s “probably” carcinogenic. That conclusion is still a step below a firm cancer-causing determination, “because of limited evidence in humans and sufficient evidence in animals,” said Kate Guyton, a toxicology expert at IARC."


The article explains the difficulty of obtaining human data that meets the "gold standard" of research - you can't do a controlled experiment on humans to see whether something is carcinogenic or not. The animal research is sufficient to conclude that glyphosate causes cancer in animals, but the data for humans is limited for the stated reason.



In a sense, the 5000 litigants are a pool of human data which has yet to be reviewed by the courts. I don't know the details but I would guess that non-Hodgkins lymphoma and a demonstrated significant exposure to Roundup are features of each case. I wouldn't necessarily expect that all cases will be successful, but at the end of the day these cases will stand as the first numerical evidence of the carcinogenicity of Roundup in humans.



Data for exposure through the food chain is even more difficult to conceive, since the degree of an individual's exposure to this and other chemicals is undocumented, thus removing the chance to readily identify a "control" group which was not exposed. The risks are unclear, but that doesn't make me comfortable about children eating it in their cereal, when we do know that it causes cancer in animals.
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16, 2018   #47
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bastrop Texas Lost Pines Forest.
Posts: 34,954
Default

What ever the case 3rd world countries with starving people will be the testing beds for many things like this and GMO products.
These poor people dont have a choice many times in what they eat.
Die of starvation now or maybe cancer in 40 to 50 years.

Good or bad a starving child or person going to bed hungry sucks big time.
We are some lucky and many times spoiled people here in the USA for sure.

Just how much is a safe limit for round up in our bodies.
When we fly we get extra doses of radiation but no one seems to care or even know this fact.
When we fly we get a higher lever of noise that damages our hearing but again no one knows or seems to care if they do.
I wore ear protection on planes.

The same people that spout roundup causing cancer many times sun bathe on the beach which we know causes cancer.'
Oh Betty you have a beautiful tan.
Why thank you Martha I am getting ready to go to an anti round up protest and want to look my best.
It is in New York and will be flying.
Whats that spot on your arm?
I dont know, I need to go to my doctor and find out, I have an appointment right before I go shopping at Whole Foods.
See you at the beach next week end.
Not saying I am for round up I am saying that people need to get real and face facts or learn up.

Worth
__________________
Home of Cactus Flats Botanical Gardens.
Neanderthal and proud of it.
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17, 2018   #48
carolyn137
Tomatoville® Moderator
 
carolyn137's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 20,980
Default

There have been several complaints about this thread b/c of the wrangling,if you will, between those who have posted.

After re reading it again my observation is that nothing new can be added to this thread that hasn't already been posted,so please let's stop the wrangling/arguing and consider posting elsewhere at Tville.

Yes, there have been contentious threads here at Tvlle in the past and I think most of you know what happened to most of them.

But it doesn't mean we have to have a new contentious thread,not at all.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

Carolyn
__________________
Carolyn
carolyn137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17, 2018   #49
GrowingCoastal
Tomatovillian™
 
GrowingCoastal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Vancouver Island Canada BC
Posts: 814
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worth1 View Post
What ever the case 3rd world countries with starving people will be the testing beds for many things like this and GMO products.
These poor people dont have a choice many times in what they eat.
Die of starvation now or maybe cancer in 40 to 50 years.

Good or bad a starving child or person going to bed hungry sucks big time.
We are some lucky and many times spoiled people here in the USA for sure.
Just how much is a safe limit for round up in our bodies.
When we fly we get extra doses of radiation but no one seems to care or even know this fact.
When we fly we get a higher lever of noise that damages our hearing but again no one knows or seems to care if they do.
I wore ear protection on planes.

The same people that spout roundup causing cancer many times sun bathe on the beach which we know causes cancer.'
Oh Betty you have a beautiful tan.
Why thank you Martha I am getting ready to go to an anti round up protest and want to look my best.
It is in New York and will be flying.
Whats that spot on your arm?
I dont know, I need to go to my doctor and find out, I have an appointment right before I go shopping at Whole Foods.
See you at the beach next week end.
Not saying I am for round up I am saying that people need to get real and face facts or learn up.

Worth
When I was in my twenties someone asked me why I tried to eat well if I was a smoker. My reply was that I needed all the help I could get!
While it was my choice(?) to smoke it has never been my choice to consume roundup or any chemicals in my oatmeal or other foods. It is forced on us whether we choose it or not, no choice.

When I was a kid people used coconut oil to enhance tanning in the sun. There was no sunscreen and it was then considered healthy to be out in the sun. Good for treatment of TB etc. Things changed and gradually so did I though not soon enough and I had a bit of skin cancer on the bridge of my nose where sunglasses don't cover. NOW I use sunscreen all the time!
GrowingCoastal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17, 2018   #50
TomNJ
Tomatovillian™
 
TomNJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Floyd VA
Posts: 702
Default

A rational perspective on health risks from Roundup is nicely presented here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-panic-n901586
TomNJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17, 2018   #51
imp
Tomatovillian™
 
imp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wichita Falls, Texas
Posts: 4,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomNJ View Post
A rational perspective on health risks from Roundup is nicely presented here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-panic-n901586

Pretty good article and based on scientific studies that have been peer reviewed.
imp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17, 2018   #52
pmcgrady
Tomatovillian™
 
pmcgrady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 1,546
Default

I'm not going to lie... I have a 2 1/2 gallon jug of Round up Pro here that I will probably spray this weekend for a landowners CRP ground, he's growing trees... And would rather spray it than have me mow it 4 times a year...which sucks, but it's not my ground... and I'm not afraid of spraying it, I'm dead already...
pmcgrady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17, 2018   #53
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 5,769
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcgrady View Post
I'm not going to lie... I have a 2 1/2 gallon jug of Round up Pro here that I will probably spray this weekend for a landowners CRP ground, he's growing trees... And would rather spray it than have me mow it 4 times a year...which sucks, but it's not my ground... and I'm not afraid of spraying it, I'm dead already...

That sucks, pmc. I mow for money now and then, but if someone asked me to poison it instead, no thanks. Life is too short. There are better jobs.
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17, 2018   #54
pmcgrady
Tomatovillian™
 
pmcgrady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 1,546
Default

Life is too short...no truer statement was ever posted...
I went for the "cure" 8 years ago (38 radiations and 8 Chemos)
It's a great way to lose weight, but I highly... Don't recommend it...

Grow and enjoy tomatoes, when you can! Peppers are good too!
pmcgrady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18, 2018   #55
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 5,769
Default

I was admiring your peppers in another thread... they look amazing!!
As always, seize the day... and max your enjoyment.
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18, 2018   #56
imp
Tomatovillian™
 
imp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wichita Falls, Texas
Posts: 4,189
Default

Another interesting article re the claimed dangers in cereals, since that subject was brought up in this thread.



https://vitals.lifehacker.com/no-you...ler-1828424844
imp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19, 2018   #57
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 5,769
Default

The biggest problem that I have with Monsanto is their interference with peer reviewed science to make sure that any results that indicated possible dangers and a need for further study would be disbelieved, ridiculed, retracted etc. This is not the way that peer review is supposed to keep science on track. Cherry picking results or studies to support one point of view, or ghostwriting positive articles which are then signed and published by respected authors, is the kind of behind the scenes scheming that defeats the purpose of science. And this is why such a large punitive damages award was made in this cancer lawsuit, because this undermining of the scientific process was confirmed in their internal documents.
I don't dispute that every one of us is free to decide, whether we agree or disagree with a particular assessment of risks, and what level of risk is acceptable for us personally - or the risk/benefit in a specific situation, whether you personally use or endorse Roundup in your garden, farm enterprise, etc etc. Just as we each decide whether or how much ham, bacon, sausage is good for us to eat, how much we enjoy the smell of the barbecue , a wood fire, sunbathing, or any other product or activity which has some associated risks according to the science of the day. As Coastal pointed out, some risks are voluntary, others are not especially if the facts are hidden. I personally want as much information as possible before I decide if a risk is serious enough for me to take further measures or not. There's no place for corporate deception in my respect for peer reviewed science.



Anyway, I will just point out that there is no closed book or bible on glyphosate, there is new research ongoing, and may help us to better understand risks vs benefits in the future. Whether the risks are acceptable or not, depends on you the individual.



For those who enjoy peer reviewed science, this article in Nature (2016) gives a comprehensive overview of interactions of environmental toxicants and microbiota in the human body.
The gut microbiota: a major player in the toxicity of environmental pollutants?
https://www.nature.com/articles/npjbiofilms20163
Roundup is among the substances reviewed:
"Glyphosate is the active component of Roundup (Montsanto, St Louis, MO, USA), the most widely used herbicide worldwide. It has been shown that the growth of Enterococcus faecalis bacteria isolated from cattle and horse faeces is inhibited by the lowest concentrations of glyphosate and the herbicide formulation tested.90 Further studies demonstrated that sensitivity to glyphosate is dependent on the bacterial strain. In particular, in poultry, pathogenic bacteria such as Salmonella enteritidis, Salmonella gallinarum, Salmonella typhimurium, Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium botulinum are highly resistant to glyphosate, whereas beneficial bacteria such as Enterococcus faecalis, Enterococcus faecium, Bacillus badius, Bifidobacterium adolescentis and Lactobacillus sp. are moderately to highly susceptible.91 If it were demonstrated that glyphosate induced similar dysbiosis in mammals, then this would be of toxicological relevance because it would lead to a reduction of potentially beneficial bacteria in the GI tract of the host."
Although not mentioned by the authors, this also raises a red flag for me, with regards the use of roundup-ready feed for meat animals, and the likelihood of pathogenic bacteria in the product.



Secondly, the use of Roundup as a dessicant on oat crops, which leaves residues in cereal, could be harmful to children, according to this 2018 research which used amounts considered safe for ingestion by the EPA:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5972442/
The Ramazzini Institute 13-week pilot study on glyphosate and Roundup administered at human-equivalent dose to Sprague Dawley rats: effects on the microbiome

"Microbiome profiling revealed that low-dose exposure to Roundup and glyphosate resulted in significant and distinctive changes in overall bacterial composition in F1 pups only. Specifically, at PND31, corresponding to pre-pubertal age in humans, relative abundance for Bacteriodetes (Prevotella) was increased while the Firmicutes (Lactobacillus) was reduced in both Roundup and glyphosate exposed F1 pups compared to controls."

"This study provides initial evidence that exposures to commonly used GBHs, at doses considered safe, are capable of modifying the gut microbiota in early development, particularly before the onset of puberty. These findings warrant future studies on potential health effects of GBHs in early development such as childhood."



Yes it's just a 13 week pilot study in rats. Nonetheless, it's enough for me personally, and I'll be buying organic oats if I'm going to make cookies for any of the little ones in my circle. (Are the oats in my cupboard right now organic? No. Did I know they were being kill- sprayed with glyphosate at harvest time? NO!!! )

In fact the use of glyphosate as a dessicant at harvest time seems really gratuitous to me, and a really unnecessary risk that will certainly leave a residue on the product.
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19, 2018   #58
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bastrop Texas Lost Pines Forest.
Posts: 34,954
Default

I dont like oats because I was force fed the darn things growing up along with white rice.
I like Cheerios but haven't bought them in years mostly because I think most grain products are garbage.
My exception is maize products treated with lime and pasta.

This whole thing about round up reminds me of the tests they did on rats with sodium nitrate and how it caused cancer.
Long story but they fed the equivalent of something like 50 pounds of bacon a day to the rats by weight if they were people.
Don't quote me on it but it was an outrageous amount.
I can get my fiber from beans and other sources.

I had a friend die from liver damage due to working as an exterminator, he didn't use protection.
His family refuses to think this.
They also think kids used to play with dinosaurs and people kept them as pets.

Worth
__________________
Home of Cactus Flats Botanical Gardens.
Neanderthal and proud of it.
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19, 2018   #59
Gerardo
Tomatovillian™
 
Gerardo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: San Diego-Tijuana
Posts: 2,531
Default

Modern life has a lot of toxicity, both self inflicted and unbeknownst. Most of our exposure is completely out of our hands.
Gerardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19, 2018   #60
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bastrop Texas Lost Pines Forest.
Posts: 34,954
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerardo View Post
Modern life has a lot of toxicity, both self inflicted and unbeknownst. Most of our exposure is completely out of our hands.
The good old days when you could get organic Brontosaurus ribs for $1.99 a pound.
__________________
Home of Cactus Flats Botanical Gardens.
Neanderthal and proud of it.
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:00 PM.


★ Tomatoville® is a registered trademark of Commerce Holdings, LLC ★ All Content ©2017 Commerce Holdings, LLC ★