Member discussion regarding the methods, varieties and merits of growing tomatoes.
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January 11, 2018 | #1 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Woodhaven, MI
Posts: 5
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early tomatoes
Hi Tomatoville,
I am a new member, and here is my first question. I start my tomato seeds the first week of February, indoors, in SE Michigan, using high intensity T-5 fluorescent grow lights. The plants grow very well, and are literally 30 inches tall, and are fairly sturdy and stocky by the time they go into the garden in late May. Most seed companies indicate their time to harvest from the time the transplants first go into the garden soil. So, given my plants are almost 15 weeks old from seed to garden, shouldn't these plants produce tomatoes sooner than plants that are 6 to 8 weeks old from seed to transplanting in the garden? |
January 11, 2018 | #2 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 688
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I would assume that the DTM (Date To Maturity) would be less in your case than the seed companies generally indicate. Of course, there are other environmental factors that come into play, but you should get tomatoes a little earlier than your neighbors.
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January 12, 2018 | #3 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Indianapolis Area 46112
Posts: 853
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speaking of MI, i would like to know how/what variety that person was growing last summer near the Clawson Park Car Show near the Royal Oak land - tall conduit poles - like 12' high, maybe 15 plants, and many nice looking maters between his and the neighbors driveway
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January 11, 2018 | #4 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posts: 3,099
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The bigger the plant the more transplant shock. I have found it best to not let my plants go past 10 weeks before transplanting. If your going to push further you will need to up pot to a bigger container until ready to plant outside. Another issue is early flowering, which will stunt the plant and reduce production. If they flower before or soon after planting then you will need to cull those blooms until the plant has had enough time to show new growth after planting.
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January 11, 2018 | #5 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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I don't go by the number of weeks,since too many variables involved in that for me.
I go by the size (height) of the seedlings and have always set out seedlings that are about 4-6 inches tall. The smaller the seedling the quicker it adapts to outside conditions IMO, well not just my opinion since there are others who do the same thing. Others here in several threads in the past have compared seedlings set out early with those set out a bit later due to weather,and they have found no difference in which ones give the first fruits since the ones set out earlier almost always catch up. No way will I set out plants that already have blossoms if I can help it, so there's that as well. And when weather demands that they are set out horizontally,not vertically. And there are those who have compared seedlings of the same size and variety, that is, two identical plants,one where the blossoms have been taken off ,the other one blossoms left on. Carolyn
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Carolyn |
January 11, 2018 | #6 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: North Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 46
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I'd be very interested to hear from those who have done this what their results were like
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January 11, 2018 | #7 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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Quote:
There are two stages of growth/development in the tomato cycle.First is called the vegetative phase where new growth results in roots and stems and foliage. The sexual phase is next which results in blossom formation followed,usually, by Pollen from the anthers pollenizing the stigma,which results in ovules in the tomato ovary being fertilized which forms a baby fruit if you will. Energy for the plant to do all of this is derived from photosynthesis in the leaves and involves mainly ATP and GTP. It takes more energy to sustain sexual than vegetative growth.It takes at least 3 to 4 days in one cycle. So if you take off blossoms,you save energy. So for most folks taking off blossoms with most varieties does not lead to earlier fruits since the next cycle starts in just 3-4 days.. If I goofed above please let me know here in this thread since I have been typing fast to get some bills paid,property tax bill, and some others,ready to go out tomorrow. Carolyn
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Carolyn |
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January 12, 2018 | #8 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: North Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 46
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Quote:
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January 11, 2018 | #9 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
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Hi sageib, welcome!
There are many approaches to getting earlier fruit, and one of them is to start them earlier, as you do, and pot them up decently to get them large before transplant. But the person I know who has practiced that (KarenO), would often have fruit as well as flowers on the plant before transplant time. Naturally those fruit that set before you put them out should be earlier than the "dtm" from the time of planting out, I would think. Anyway you'll probably hear more about it from her. I have a short and cold growing season here, but I don't have space for big pots indoors. My plants are flowering or close to it by 8 weeks and that's when I plant them, but I don't cull early blossoms as I want those early fruit. I've never seen them cause any harm with the varieties I've grown - if the plant doesn't want to set yet, they will drop the blossoms themselves, anyway. But most of them are happy enough as long as they get planted when the flowers start. And planting out at 8 weeks, I usually have lots of fruit set by 15 weeks - even some ripe ones on early varieties. So I'm wondering if you don't have flowers and fruit at 15 weeks? because if not, there is likely no benefit to the long time under lights, and maybe they are shutting down the fruit cycle until they get some root space. This past year I had to hold my plants indoors (in beer cups) for an extra two weeks because of extreme cold weather. This definitely delayed them in setting up fruit, and it had a variable impact depending on the variety - some were really badly affected, others not so much. So I think it depends on two things (1) how big of a pot do you have them in, and is it big enough for them to start setting fruit as if they were in the ground, and (2) different varieties of tomato will respond differently to the treatment. |
January 11, 2018 | #10 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 5,922
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Quote:
Short answer, yes. Firstly, DTM is much more accurate from germination to first ripe fruit. From Set out means too much variability. Imo Of course a healthy 15 week old plant properly hardened off and blooming will fruit sooner. There’s more than one way to grow tomatoes don’t believe anybody who says there isn’t. well grown large blooming transplants planted out at the correct time, not early will definarely allow a short season grower to harvest tomatoes sooner and over a longer season. A greenhouse or good cold frame helps tremendously along with the dedication to care for the seedlings for a longer period of time. The secret is they do not go in the garden early. They go in when it is reliably warm, in my area that is the end of May for plants sown about the 20 of March and they are grown in large enough pots and fertilized. Minimum 1litre, pref 1 gallon I reliably have at least some ripe full sized tomatoes by the second week in July Until frost. Northern gardeners who follow the traditional wisdom of planting out small non blooming transplants at the end of May will not be able to grow most good mid season tomatoes well or will not have ripe fruit until mid -late August and frost is then a threat. If you limit yourself to early varieties it’s not so important (which many northern gardeners do) but I don’t enjoy them and much prefer the huge selection of mid season beauties. Last edited by KarenO; January 11, 2018 at 10:52 PM. |
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January 14, 2018 | #11 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Woodhaven, MI
Posts: 5
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KarenO,
Thank you for the info. I do almost all of your suggestions. In my basement, my seeds are planted in 3 inch paper cups, filled with potting soil, warmed by my grow lights to 80 degrees. At first true leaves, I turn on a 4 inch fan set at low to simulate an outdoor breeze to stimulate the plants. At 3 weeks from germination, (the beginning of March), the grow lights and plants go into my attached garage. Temps range between 50 and 60 degrees, with a 6 inch fan to simulate a somewhat stronger breeze. At the beginning of April, I transplant all plants into plastic 4x4x4 inch pots. Plants are watered when needed, and fertilized every 2 weeks with a 1/4 dose solution of MG tomato food. At the end of April all plants are again transplanted into 1 gallon plastic pots. All plants are then put in my homemade greenhouse, ( a 4x4x4 foot structure wrapped with 6 mil opaque plastic, with a double hinged roof and access doors) At the end of May (approx.) the plants are literally outgrowing the greenhouse, and are taken out of their pots and transplanted into the garden. Even after all this preparation (even if I love every second of it) my 60 day DTM tomatoes give me only a few ripe ones in mid June, and only start to produce decently in mid July. What else can I do to get tomatoes earlier? |
January 14, 2018 | #12 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 688
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January 14, 2018 | #13 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
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I wonder which varieties of 60 DTM tomatoes you're growing? Many toms with a nominal dtm of 60 days are also selected to be tolerant or well adapted to early season temperatures, so they may do better simply planted out earlier as KD suggests.
I think the reason for having a DTM "from date of transplant" is to acknowledge the time it takes for tomatoes to develop enough root system to pump out the fruit as well. You are providing some extra root space with a 1 gal pot but it's not enough for full production to kick into gear. Larger pots would be another option, but then you would need a bigger greenhouse. |
January 12, 2018 | #14 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6
Posts: 1,582
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Yes, time inside doesn't fully compensate time outside and I think that has mostly to do with light intensity (sun is still much stronger than grow lights) and possibly day/night temperature difference.
The mild climate where one grows the seedlings combined with high nitrogen leads to delay in flowers. One can count number of leaves to first flower cluster. For same variety one would assume it's always the same. It isn't and can vary up to 3-4 leaves more if conditions are too cozy. |
January 14, 2018 | #15 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MA
Posts: 903
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My personal experience matches what Karen described above. One of the pleasures I seek in the new growing season is that very first ripe tomato. Of course other early milestones and objectives are desirable too, and we have various means to achieve them. But aiming for that first fruit is always a fun goal of mine, and for the past ~4 years, that came from plants that carried blossoms when they went in the ground. It doesn't matter if that plant never grows as big as expected, nor yields a lot of fruit -that's why we grow many others. If those early plants give me a few early fruits, they've done their job.
Ideal growing conditions are needed throughout: lots of light (intense and duration), large pot (1 gal), proper hardening, then set-out with minimal disruption. Once plant is established and a couple of blossoms are close to fruit set, I cull the others. The only thing I plan to do differently this year is to wait 1-2 weeks longer until the ground gets warmer. We're talking full size fruit here, cherries don't count. Black Krim won for me 2 years in a row. |
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