Lets try this seed saving thing again

[carolyn137]

OK, we're up to 60 posts here and I've done several. I swore, I really did, as well as thinking of taping my fingers together for this thread that I would not post here again.

But I am, all to say that I disagree with a lot that's been posted, no names to be mentioned, of course, and it's time for me to say that between me and thee it's time to gently disagree based on saving seed by fermentation for close to 4,000 varieties and if anyone has my book you can see what I wrote there and the pictures shown. The book is now out of print but had I been given the chance there are a few very minor changes I would have made in that fermentation discussion.

Finally, there is no ONE way of doing fermentations as I see it , no specific days for complete fermentation, no add water or not, depends on the tomato variety, or season ( as to temps) and there is no ONE way of processing seeds either. Only by practice and experience can a person find out what WORKS for that person based on ALL of the variables that I've posted here before that exist WHERE(geographically) and WHEN a person processes seeds, not just here at Tville but at several other places starting several decades ago.

Peace.

Carolyn

[seaeagle]

Just wanted to add a few important points

When you see the fungal mat, you should either stir or end the process and clean the seed.It is fine to for it to stay there for a few hours or more, but not days.There is some evidence that the fungal mat could injure and or discolor the seeds.

Reference: Raymond, A.T.G., 1999. Vegetable Seed Production. 2nd Edn., CABI Publishing, Wallingford, Oxon, UK.

When I get quick fungal mats like I have been getting in 24 to 36 hours I see no reason to stir until I see a fungal mat.After that I stir a couple of times and let it sit another day, still within that important 3 day window.

Fermentation usually begins 12 hours after you start give or take and I think it is fine to stir before you see the fungal mat.But I also think it is important for a person who is doing a fermentation for the first time to see the fungal mat and stirring can delay that or can cause you not to get a fungal mat at all.

Also, I have read many research documents and their conclusions that the longer you ferment the more seed you will lose.I cannot as a rational individual dismiss this overwhelming evidence.There is even evidence that plant vigor of the seedling is affected with long fermentation.

Next up we will discuss the Lemon Juice method of tomato seed extraction which is close to being just as effective as fermentation

[SharonRossy]

I have a question about seeds, please excuse my ignorance, as this is the first time I've saved seeds in so long that I can't remember when the last time was. I know there has been some discussion about black spots on seeds or black seeds, but I'm participating in the dwarf tomato project and opened some tomatoes to save seeds and every seed was black. There were no signs of seeds starting to germinate inside - the tomato looked fine on the exterior, although both plants were heavily infested with white flies, no matter what measures I took to prevent and to get rid of them. Subsequently, I did manage to find fruit from the same plant that didn't have that issue, but I was wondering about that.
I have also had issues with fermentation - nothing was happening, so now I have moved my containers in my bathroom area where I have a heated floor and the ambient temperature is much warmer than the rest of my house. I am finally seeing a fungal mat forming. But do I stir or not? I'm confused.... I did use the Oxi Clean method for one batch because I was worried I would not be able to save seeds when the fermentation didn't seem to be working, until I had my epiphany of relocating the containers.
Thanks, Sharon

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by SharonRossy

I have a question about seeds, please excuse my ignorance, as this is the first time I've saved seeds in so long that I can't remember when the last time was. I know there has been some discussion about black spots on seeds or black seeds, but I'm participating in the dwarf tomato project and opened some tomatoes to save seeds and every seed was black. There were no signs of seeds starting to germinate inside - the tomato looked fine on the exterior, although both plants were heavily infested with white flies, no matter what measures I took to prevent and to get rid of them. Subsequently, I did manage to find fruit from the same plant that didn't have that issue, but I was wondering about that.
I have also had issues with fermentation - nothing was happening, so now I have moved my containers in my bathroom area where I have a heated floor and the ambient temperature is much warmer than the rest of my house. I am finally seeing a fungal mat forming. But do I stir or not? I'm confused.... I did use the Oxi Clean method for one batch because I was worried I would not be able to save seeds when the fermentation didn't seem to be working, until I had my epiphany of relocating the containers.
Thanks, Sharon

I would stir and ferment for another 24 hours , stirring as much as you want, unless it has been over 4 days then I would go ahead and clean them.Three days is preferable as a maximum length of time to ferment according to the stuff I read.There are a some that even say 24 to 48 hours is preferable.

No clue about the black seeds

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

I would stir and ferment for another 24 hours , stirring as much as you want, unless it has been over 4 days then I would go ahead and clean them.Three days is preferable as a maximum length of time to ferment according to the stuff I read.There are a some that even say 24 to 48 hours is preferable.

No clue about the black seeds

The only time I've seen black seeds is when a tomato fruit has what's called internal BER. In which case there is no exterior black lesion at the blossom end,

http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/docu...11-04-10_r.pdf

http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.corne...Tom_ComDis.htm

Seaeagle says he reads stuff here and there whereas I have done the same stuff for about three decades, so have personal experience.

Whenever you stir the contents of a fermentation you introduce O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process as I've posted several times.

First let the fungal mat form by allowing mold spores and bacteria to fall to the surface of the container. The time it takes to form that mat is highly variable and depends on temps and humidity, etc. In some cases there can be a filmy white surface with no definite mat, but those cases are rare indeed and relate the the internal pH of the tomato juices as well as the kinds of molds and bacteria present on the surface. In which case just see what happens and usually there are enough enzymes made to remove gel capsules and lower the pathogen burden on the seed coat, but it will take longer than if a sold mat were present.

So, once the mat is formed, which is the usual case, O2 that is in the upper layers of the gook is removed by aerobic molds and bacteria. I should mention that in addition to both aerobic and anaerobic molds and bacteria that there are some that are called facultative, viz, can operate on the presence or absence of air.

With time, which cannot be given, you'll see a clear area start to form underneath the mat, then you should see gas bubbles that form on the inside of the container, then youll see seeds dropping to the botteom.

Then and ONLY then do you process the seeds by taking off the mat, THEN pour off the tomato gunk and mat leaving the seeds at the btoom which will still have some tomato debris attached to them

Holding a hose on your hand spritz water into the container maybe half full, Then swirl the contents and pour off the liquid part. Repeat until the water you pour off is clear .

Then tap out the seeds, well I don't see why I need to go thru this part again,

Have I EVER said to stir the contents of the fermention while it is still fermenting? No, b'c that would break up the mat and stop the fermentation by adding air.

Have I ever said that fermentation takes so many days to occur? No I have not. No one can b'c of all the variables I've mentioned many times as to temps, humidity, kinds of fungi and bacteria that are in the mat.

I hope the above does help,

Carolyn, waiting for the US Open mens final in NY to start, is in a rain delay, or she wouldn't have had the time to do such a long descriptive post.Still in a rain delay so I came back to add that when taking off the mat there are usually seeds and debris clinging to the underside it so just take your fingers and push that clinging stuff down in the gook below since most of those seeds would already have been fermented. Contact between seeds and the mat is not necessary at all but does happen under the mat. Most of the time it's the enzymes that are made that do the work and the enzymes are in the liquid phase.

[seaeagle]

Well I am reading stuff here and there.I will give you some examples of what I am reading and it is mostly research from Universities, government papers etc.It is not from MOM AND POPS GARDEN BLOG.

And I can honestly say I have not seen one paper say that at some point you shouldn't stir.I guess it doesn't mean they are right.But you are definitely in the minority on this one.

Here are a couple of examples, I can produce more but not tonight.The first one has a lot of interesting stuff about Pollination and other stuff that may be of interest to others

For natural fermentation,
the pulp containing the seeds is left to ferment for up to 3
days at temperatures between 18 and 25C
(George, 1999; Peñaloza 2001). The time of
fermentation depends on the temperature. The
mix of gelatinous seeds and juice must be
stirred frequently in order to achieve a uni
form fermentation rate in the container.
Fermentation is done when the gelatinous coating of the seeds has broken; exceeding the
fermentation time negatively affect
s seed quality (George, 1999).

http://seedbiology.osu.edu/HCS630_fi...er,%20text.pdf


In fermentation methods, the selected ripe fruits are harvested, crushed and allowed for fermentation in non-metallic containers at room temperature for two to three days. The pulps remain in the extract until the gel surrounding the seeds has been degraded by microorganisms (Eevera and Vanangamudi, 2006). The mixture should be stirred at once or twice a day to maintain a uniform rate of fermentation, also to release the seeds entrapped in the floating pulp and to prevent a fungal growth from starting at the surface of the mass, which can injure or discolour seeds (Raymond, 1999). When fermentation is complete, the good seeds settle down at the bottom and much of the pulp floats at the top, leaving a layer of clear liquid in between (Desai, 2004). Fermentation should take place long enough for the sufficient disintegration mucilaginous material adhering to the seed. The speed or duration of fermentation process is largely dependent on the temperature. If it remains between 24 to 27°C, satisfactory separation of seed and pulp may be achieved within 48 to 72 h (Agrawal, 1995). In relatively high temperatures (25-30°C) the fermentation is complete in approximately 24 h (Fenwick-Kelly and George, 1998). Excessive fermentation reduces seed quality. Usually the longer the fermentation time and the higher the temperature resulted in the greater reduction in germination (Silva et al., 1982). Fermentation should be a controlled process because if continued too long, it creates heat and mechanical injury to the seeds (McDonald and Copeland, 1997). Also long fermentation can cause premature sprouting (Eevera and Vanangamudi, 2006). Liptay (1989) stated that with long term fermentation percentage germination was declined severely at 25°C or higher temperatures.


http://www.scialert.net/fulltext/?do....820#539926_ja

[SharonRossy]

thanks Carolyn, that was very clear and precise. I will follow your instructions to the T! Hope you have been enjoying the U S Open. And thanks to all who share their experiences and knowledge. Me thinks tomato season is coming to an end in my neck of the woods!

[Worth1]

How about adding some sugar and yeast that should get things rolling.

Worth

[SharonRossy]

seaeagle, your response came in before mine. I appreciate your post and I am sure there are many opinions out there about the best method. And Carolyn has said that each person will do what works best for them, in the end. I did try stirring the mixture but then nothing happened and after a week, I threw out my initial batches of seeds. Like I said, then I used Oxi Clean as a back up and now I'm trying fermentation.

Again, thanks one and all!
Sharon

[SueCT]

NOT for argument, so no need to post a lot of links links and studies, but one of the things that occurred to me in all the different ways to do fermentation and especially how long to do it, is that there is no real information about when fermentation has done its job in reducing bacteria and funguses/fungi on the seed coat. Since fresh, unfermented seed can be viable and grow, that can't be the only test of how long you should ferment. So read what everyone does and take the advise that seems to fit your needs. My current batch have already fermented longer than 3 or 4 days so I guess I could do my experiment with viability should I want to, but not sure I want to get into that. I do know that since I stopped stirring from the beginning I got a much better fungal mat, if that is what you are after. Some don't feel that is necessary at all so if you don't care if you get a fungal mat, or what Carolyn says about the anaerobic process, then end it whenever it has done what you want it to. If it is just to separate the gel sac then fine, end it when that is done. Not having saved seeds before, I wrongly assumed there was one "correct" way to do fermentation, and I have learned here that there may not be.

[SharonRossy]

Worth, I love your sense of humor! it would probably work, lol!
Anyways, whatever I am saving is for personal use other than the dwarf tomato project. So I am doing the best I can, and hopefully, all will be right in the world of tomatoes!
Sharon

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by SharonRossy

Worth, I love your sense of humor! it would probably work, lol!
Anyways, whatever I am saving is for personal use other than the dwarf tomato project. So I am doing the best I can, and hopefully, all will be right in the world of tomatoes!
Sharon

Actually when you are fermenting mash for alcohol the one thing you dont do it stir it.
I think I will collect some seeds and see what happens.

Worth

[SharonRossy]

Please keep us updated! And while you're at it, on the random pictures thread, share your recipe for pickles, please, that is if you have one that doesn't involve fermentation, lol!

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by SharonRossy

seaeagle, your response came in before mine. I appreciate your post and I am sure there are many opinions out there about the best method. And Carolyn has said that each person will do what works best for them, in the end. I did try stirring the mixture but then nothing happened and after a week, I threw out my initial batches of seeds. Like I said, then I used Oxi Clean as a back up and now I'm trying fermentation.

Again, thanks one and all!
Sharon

Yes Sharon, I agree everyone will develop their own way and it will probably all work in the end.

I do love the intelligent debate though and it has been proven that people learn more when a subject or thread is interesting

HAPPY FERMENTING

[SharonRossy]

Luckily, I don't think where I live getting maggots or other disgusting creatures will be a problem, hopefully !