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Old January 1, 2020   #1
b54red
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Default Replinishing my seed supply

I just ordered a bunch of open pollinated seed for tomatoes for the first time in many years as I have been saving seed for years and years. The problem has come up with more than a couple of varieties that have degenerated and changed obviously from cross pollination over the years and I can't count on some of the seed being true so I thought I would replenish some of my seed. Has anyone else run into this problem after years of seed saving. I usually grow at least 30 varieties each year and with them all mixed up and growing close to each other I guess is is inevitable that there would be some crosses showing up in my seed saving.

After so many years of trading and raising my own seed it was quite a shock to see the prices on seed that I haven't paid for in decades. I know I could have probably gotten most of the seeds I needed through trading but I wanted them for this years grafting so to save time I just purchased them. It also gave me a chance to add some new to me varieties to try and see how they do in my garden.

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Old January 1, 2020   #2
natural
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Yes. I have had crosses and degeneration occur on a few varieties. Chocolate Stripes was the worst example in my garden. I did the same thing as you. I chose to re-purchase seeds.

It pays to research different seed companies. Prices and seed counts can vary greatly for some varieties, especially older ones.

Bill
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Old January 1, 2020   #3
Father'sDaughter
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My father gave up on his two old (I think brought over from Italy) varieties a number of years back because "they weren't growing right anymore."

I'm thinking it was cross breeding. For years he only grew two varieties -- a paste and a slicer, so chances of any cross breeding were slim. Then he started adding in seedlings of other varieties purchased at a local nursery, plus a few neighbors also began putting in gardens... Those original two are now lost. At least these days we can turn to others or seed companies for our favorites when they don't "grow right anymore."
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Old January 1, 2020   #4
Nan_PA_6b
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I make a spreadsheet of the varieties I want, where to buy them, and the cost of the seeds plus the cost of shipping for each store. Then it's easy to see which store or combination of stores will get me my seeds most cheaply. I can save $5-$10 even on a small order that way. (I like math.)


I'm also a firm believer in bagging blossoms where possible.

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Old January 1, 2020   #5
b54red
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I am glad I am not the only one this has happened to. I think the worst is Aker's West Virginia which went from a large red to a small red to almost a cherry that was sometimes black. I grew out three last year and got three different tomatoes but all were prolific big plants with small varied fruit.

Since I try to graft all my plants some of them may be affected negatively by the graft so I am looking forward to how all of the new ones turn out. I may grow a few without grafting but the odds are not good for heirlooms in my fusarium and nematode rich soil.

Bill
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Old January 2, 2020   #6
KarenO
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I think this is a good illustration of the critical importance of selection in seed saving. Not just for breeding and stabilizing new varieties but in maintaining OP tomato varieties
It’s crucial to select and save seed from heathy fruit from healthy correct to type plants. Saving seeds from inferior plants and fruit eventually results in a deterioration of the whole variety.
Cheap seed is usually not worth the money saved. Like most things, seeds included, we get what we pay for.
In trading seeds, Swapping with people you know value correct seed is also important. Many just don’t care to worry about such niceties as correct seed with the correct name saved from healthy plants.
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Old January 2, 2020   #7
b54red
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Karen I always save seed from healthy plants and ones showing true to type. I have gotten as many non true to type seeds purchasing from reputable seed suppliers as from trading with members here. I think it is just a result of growing a lot of different varieties in very close conditions for a long time.

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Old January 2, 2020   #8
Tormato
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Do the math (and impress your children).


1.) Save seeds from 1 tomato, put them all in one packet, and you have perhaps a 1 in 25 chance of crossed seed, to plant out next year.


2.) Save seeds from 2 or more tomatoes, put them all in one packet, and you have perhaps a 1 in 25 chance of crossed seed, to plant out next year.



3.) Save seeds from 2 tomatoes, put them in separate packets (labeled as such), and you have perhaps a 1 in 625 chance that both packets are of crossed seed, to plant out next year. Having a plant from seeds of each packet is required to take advantage of the inherent probability of getting the correct variety.



4.) Save seeds from 3 tomatoes, put them in separate packets (labeled as such), and you have perhaps a 1 in 15,625 chance that all 3 packets are of crossed seed, to plant out next year. Sow seeds from each packet, of course.



Which of those 4 options do I choose?


Number 2, because I welcome crosses. And I also know that perhaps more than 96% of the seed is correct, in any random pack.


If a train leaves Los Angeles at noon Pacific Time, and another train leaves Boston at noon Eastern Standard Time, a day before Eastern Daylight time...


...it means that THIS train has left the station.
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Old January 2, 2020   #9
rxkeith
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whenever possible i try to save seeds from multiple tomatoes, more than one plant if i can. i rarely have had noticeable crossing occurring with the exception of anna russian
that gave me a cherry tomato that has given me some promising f4 selections.

the other possible cross is medovaya kaplya that has given me some regular leaf plants.
those plants have not survived for whatever reason, so no telling what the tomatoes
are like.

my uncle steve italian plum tomato i got from my great uncle steve still looks like the
tomato i got from him years ago. i haven't bagged blossoms over 40 plus years growing it.
if you are starting out with true seeds of a family heirloom, i would suggest not being the only one growing it in case crossing occurs. commercially available seeds can always be replaced, single source heirlooms can't. i would also save seeds only every few years to freshen the seed supply, reason being every time you save seeds, crossing may occur. this advice only applies if you are not bagging blossoms.




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Old January 3, 2020   #10
greenthumbomaha
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If you are not bagging blossoms, I have read on the forum to save the first ripe fruits to minimize the chances of crossing. I have no idea if the information is correct. Perhaps someone knowledgeable can substantiate this method.
Personally I tend to save seeds later in the season when the taste is at its peak.

- Lisa
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Old January 3, 2020   #11
Father'sDaughter
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It all has to do with pollinator activity. In early spring when they are not yet as active, the chances of a "bee made cross" are a lot lower for any tomatoes that set during that time.
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Old January 3, 2020   #12
RJGlew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter View Post
My father gave up on his two old (I think brought over from Italy) varieties a number of years back because "they weren't growing right anymore."

I'm thinking it was cross breeding. For years he only grew two varieties -- a paste and a slicer, so chances of any cross breeding were slim. Then he started adding in seedlings of other varieties purchased at a local nursery, plus a few neighbors also began putting in gardens... Those original two are now lost. At least these days we can turn to others or seed companies for our favorites when they don't "grow right anymore."
Self pollination within the anther cone is still sexual reproduction and the resulting seeds are genotypically different. The belief that seeds collected from a tomato will `clone' the parent is just not true.
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