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A garden is only as good as the ground that it's planted in. Discussion forum for the many ways to improve the soil where we plant our gardens.

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Old December 31, 2013   #31
drew51
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Yes we have went far astray of our topic, but a fascinating discussion. I wish it was just agriculture that is in dire straits, just about every aspect of society, monetary policy etc, is far astray! What they call science today, as big of a joke as any. And from science I'll end in saying all the nitrogen is from the stars, and it's still here somewhere... Reminds me of energy. It's hard to save energy when a basic law of physics tells us "energy is neither created nor destroyed". You can't save something that isn't lost.


What we need to figure out is what is the best ways to add trace elements? I'm still not sure we have an answer to that question?
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Old December 31, 2013   #32
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What we need to figure out is what is the best ways to add trace elements? I'm still not sure we have an answer to that question?
Well each case is different, especially container gardening. But for most cases as a general rule the trace elements should already be in the ground. Although they might be washed down deep or in some other way unavailable.

First rule of thumb is get a soil test and find out the basics of your soil. Then beyond that, as Hermitian alluded to, you need humus/humic acid, to provide a way for the biology to unlock it. Turns out the best way to pump carbon down deep in soil, as much as 15 feet down or more depending on species, and then start pulling lost trace minerals back up, is with deep rooted perennial grasses. As much as 20% of the sugars and other products of a grass plant are pumped down through the roots directly into the soil to feed the symbiotic micro-organisms living there. They in turn supply the plant with the trace minerals the plant needs, and as they complete their life cycles, leave carbon in the form of humus behind. Ironically one of the first things 99% of anyone in agriculture does, (whether small scale horticulture, or large scale commercial Ag), is kill off those pesky deep rooted perennial grasses.

We are fighting against nature. First we kill off Nature's solution to the problem, then we have a crisis where we have to add inputs. Then since we are running the system off inputs, we need ever more inputs and definitely can't allow any grasses or weeds to steal any of those inputs. Thus we end up being locked into a biological dead end.

In the past the only solution was to allow a played out field to go fallow for a number of years to recuperate. In modern times we buy expensive additives and fertilizers.

But modern science in organic methods is opening up possibilities, even these methods can be borrowed by those who are not 100% "organic". Annuals, if they are deep rooted, can also to a lesser degree have a similar effect. So this leads to the possibility of both companion planting and/or 12 month year round cover crops/living mulches to help solve the problem.

Here are a few examples: (The first one I have posted prior)
Living Mulch

Under Cover Farmers

Pasture cropping

And lastly the project I am developing myself, with help from others welcome, that combines many features and principles from all 3 (and several other sources).

The Red Baron Project

Probably my solution isn't for everyone. But with a bit of human ingenuity, I bet you or others like you could come up with some ideas that fit your situation. Good luck!
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Old December 31, 2013   #33
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[FONT=Arial]What we need to figure out is what is the best ways to add trace elements? I'm still not sure we have an answer to that question?
"Best" for some people might mean highly composted grass clippings and remnants of leafy produce. For others who want more precision but to remain organic, it could be a chelation in wood sugars (Lignosulfonates).
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Old December 31, 2013   #34
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Those approaches are impractical for me. I'm not really having a problem. Good old manure takes care of most things for me. I'm not a farmer, just a backyard grower. Most of my soil is in raised beds from premium purchases, it's not lacking anything at first for sure, so soil tests make little sense. At least for the first few years. I suppose if adding compost yearly doesn't solve a problem I'm having I will test soil, but I'm moving in 5 years from this place anyway. The store bought premium mix from many different companies.(I like to use 5 different composts, and different everything, even brands of peat moss). I love peat moss, my blueberries thrive in it. Nothing is better, no good substitute exists.
I use chemical fertilizers and organic, also trace elements that are in the fertilizers like foliage pro has all the trace elements. But I was looking for a better way, guess I'll stick with it. A living mulch will not work for me. I see in the video, the person still adds manure, she has too, plant mulches and nitrogen fixing plants cannot produce as much as is used.
Plus I don't have a backhoe! Also I grow trees and blueberries, strawberries, raspberries. I cannot use cover crops, the plants never leave. Other crops rob nutrients from the main crop. Using nitrogen fixing crops will not work, as my plants steal the light, no light is really visible at ground level. None of the systems you presented dealt with the plants I grow. Plus I have money, so amending or adding from outside is not a financial concern. This is a hobby, not a living, or life style.
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Old December 31, 2013   #35
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"Best" for some people might mean highly composted grass clippings and remnants of leafy produce. For others who want more precision but to remain organic, it could be a chelation in wood sugars (Lignosulfonates).



OK, well that is weird and interesting. Currently I mix shredded leaves with manure and mushroom compost and add organic fertilizer also, different types depending on the plant. This is my general mix.
For blueberries I don't use compost, it's pine bark and peat with cottonseed meal. Nutrition is supplemented with foliage pro and ammonium sulfate.
I have no idea where to get such wood products mentioned? or if they are really needed for what I'm doing.
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Old December 31, 2013   #36
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Drew,

The Dyna-Gro Foliage Pro product you are using contains a good balance of "trace" elements. For fruiting plants, it is a bit short on potash. I'd recommend you supplement it with Sul-Po-Mag to make up the difference.
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Old December 31, 2013   #37
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Thanks much, will do! I actually used that product last year. It's very compatible with blueberries.
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