Not disease, but something's not right.

[clkingtx]

I apologise in advance for the lengthy post, I am very curious about what is going on with some of my plants...


This year I grew

12 dwarf project tomato f2s and 2 f1s, an Iditarod red, and 4 varieties of micromultiflora f3s,

then. sungold f1, Tasmanian chocolate, Yukon quest, dwarf Mr snow, (all from wintersown.org), and orange Russian 117, rosella purple, dwarf sweet sue, and new big dwarf. I am also growing other veggies, corn, okra, and squash...then flowers nasturtium, and marigold.

All plants (except micromultifloras which were put in plastic pots) were potted up into Walmart shopping bags, and I used mittleider weekly feed(micronutrient mix, 10-10-10 feet, and epson salts) twice so far, and preplant mix(borax, epson salts, and lime) when I set them out. The grow bags were all placed in kiddie pools with holes punched 2 inches up to allow wicking of the water, and were bottom watered.


The first grouping I used a Miracle Grow and a Lowe's brand potting mix. It was Peat, perlite, compost, etc. All these plants (except one set of micromultiflora, which I figured were just duds, as they didn't flower, so we're discarded) did phenomenal, lush growth, and heavy production. Even the plants that dried too much occasionally stayed alive, and kept their fruit set.

The second grouping had very odd results, all over the board. I had to cheap out on the mix, and used cotton burr compost, garden soil, and a little perlite. The new big dwarf set a couple of fruit, but wasn't in good health, and was ravaged by hornworms. Most of blossoms weren't formed right, looked odd...kind of like fused blossoms, but not quite. I yanked the plant, since after all that it was also the worst affected by foliage disease. The sungold f1 grew looking like a dwarf, with crinkled leaves, and never got taller than 14 inches. It produced fruit of the right color, but tasted awful, and started producing way later than everything else. I yanked that plant to plant something better. The or117 stayed small for a while, finally took off (or I would have yanked it when I did the sungold)but still hasn't produced any fruit. The corn I planted WAY too densley(8-12 in a 5 gal growbag), and it grew well, produced tassels and pollen, but not one ear. The squash is doing fine, started producing fine. Flowers are as expected. Okra was as expected, flowered and set fruit appropriately, lousy yield, but was crowded out by the Yukon quest plant, which had many malformed blossoms, but set 1 good fruit so far. The Tasmanian chocolate only recently started flowering, may have a couple of tiny fruit set now, but is growing like an indeterminate. The dwarf Mr snow only has the misshapen flowers, no normal ones that I can see. Upon dissection, it looks like the ovary is large, the pistol is enormous, the anthers are pressed tight to ovary, and very small, and the petals are attached so they lay tight against the calyxes. I yanked the dwarf sweet sue and rosella purple because they hadn't formed 1 fruit... Just the fused blossom issue, I guess.

I am not upset at all, I figured since I had to cheap out on the soil(and didn't actually get the brand of cotton burr compost I expected) that I might have issues. I know it has to be something with the soil, since nearly everything I planted in it had problems.

Any ideas what it might be??? And more importantly, if it might have worn off so the soil can be reused next year? I can try to get some pictures of the plants and flowers later.

Thanks!

[KarenO]

I would think most likely generalized nutrient deficiency and moisture issues. It really would be worth the investment to get yourself some good potting mix and composted manure. Also some large plastic pots or food grade buckets can be had for free if you look or place an ad on your local buy and sell They would be much easier to maintain a moisture level in than a wallmart bag. You can keep what potting mix you have but you need to add a good bit of something with some nutrients for next year. I would say adding 1/3 compost to your mix and maybe some vermiculite for drainage and aeration.
I think it is not surprising that your plants were stunted and not producing in the circumstances. Good soil= good plants. It will be worth the investment, truly.
KarenO

[clkingtx]

Thanks for responding. I agree that good soil is very important. I will definitely get the best I am able next year.

The mittleider weekly feed is a complete fertilizer with all macro and micronutrients required by plants, and I have used it twice so far. I guess it is about time to fertilize again, thanks. I will do that today.

I will definitely check around for buckets and plastic pots locally. You are right, plastic would definitely keep moisture levels more constant.


I guess my main curiosity is what, if anything, in the mix could be causing the odd formation of the reproductive parts of most, but not all, of those plants. Would a wet mix cause problems like that?

I will definitely add a lot of perlite to the mix, along with other enrichment, but am concerned if there might be something residual in the mix that could negatively affect next year's crops.

Thanks

[Cole_Robbie]

I'd blame the garden soil in the mix. You may have fungus gnat larvae eating your roots.

[clkingtx]

That is would be great if it is just a moisture issue! I can easily amend the mix to fix that. I guess some of the plants had a higher tolerance for wet conditions, so they did better.

[KarenO]

stunting and all sorts of other abnormalities can be caused by numerous different nutrient deficiencies. fertilizing would need to be heavy and frequent to make up for the lack in this case of pretty well every nutrient a plant needs.
KarenO.

[clkingtx]

Thanks all, this gave me lots to think about!

[Gerardo]

Feed 'em more often and the ones not infested will rise to the challenge.

OR117 is temperamental, once established it can have a strong 2nd wind.

[brownrexx]

No one has really addressed this issue but over feeding can also cause stunting issues and toxicity to the plants.

Some people kill their plants with kindness by over feeding or over watering.

I am an organic gardener so I mostly use compost for fertilization along with some Tomato Tone sometimes but never more than once a month.

Many people on the Organic Gardening Forum that I frequent use Epsom salts on their tomatoes without knowing the magnesium content of their soil and it can lead to calcium deficiencies for the plants.

I do not grow in containers so that may be totally different that what I do but I always get a reliable soil test from a lab before I add anything other than compost to my soil. It only costs $9 and because of that I know that I have adequate amounts of magnesium and calcium so there is no need for me to add any.

I always equate fertilizing without knowing what you need is like salting your food before you taste it. How do you know if it needs salt and you may end up with excess salt.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by clkingtx

cotton burr compost

Could be herbicide contamination. That's another possibility that hasn't been mentioned.

All of this could equally be said of herbicide damage/plants that succumbed to herbicide damage/plants outgrowing herbicide damage:

Originally Posted by clkingtx

Most of blossoms weren't formed right, looked odd...kind of like fused blossoms, but not quite. I yanked the plant, since after all that it was also the worst affected by foliage disease. The sungold f1 grew looking like a dwarf, with crinkled leaves, and never got taller than 14 inches. It produced fruit of the right color, but tasted awful, and started producing way later than everything else. I yanked that plant to plant something better. The or117 stayed small for a while, finally took off (or I would have yanked it when I did the sungold)but still hasn't produced any fruit.

Pictures would help.

[clkingtx]

Herbicide damage was what I was wanting to rule out. The only plants that indicated any odd foliage were the only two indeterminates I was growing. They weren't really twisted, the Sungold F1 looked like a dwarf, never took off. The orange russian 117 sulked for a long time, but has now come out of it and is growing well. All the dwarfs had perfectly formed foliage. Every plant stayed a very healthy dark green color.

As far as feeding goes, I am using a complete fertilizer, with all of the nutrients that plants need. I started out the season fertilizing regularly, intending to feed them every week. Then we got tons of rain, and I am sure flooded a lot of the nutrients out, I re-fertilized, but then I had some beans that just up and died, I suspected fertilizer burn, so I backed off. Then I got sick, and wasn't able to look after them for a while.

The dwarfs in question are: yukon quest, tasmanian chocolate, and mr snow. Tasmanian chocolate (which actually is growing more like an indeterminate, kind of sprawling over)has only just started flowering. Yukon quest set one perfect fruit, and all the other flowers are as described, distorted and not setting. Mr snow is the same. Lots of blooms, but no set fruit at all.

I'm sorry, I forgot I hadn't shown pictures:

[gorbelly]

Pictures of the whole plant would be more helpful. But if you're sure it's not herbicide damage, then I would agree with others that it's a nutrient issue. The problem is, that's a pretty wide area to troubleshoot.

My best guess based on the available information is that your compost mix might be too alkaline. I'm guessing this because the plants that did OK, the squash and okra, like a moderately alkaline soil. I also notice that you have lime as part of your "pre-planting" mix. So maybe the mix was on the alkaline side to begin with, the lime pushed it over the edge, and only the plants that like soil on the alkaline side were able to cope? As you probably know, if the soil pH is wrong for the plant, it will have problems taking up nutrients, and plants that like acid soil will have particular problems taking up potassium if the soil is too alkaline for them. Potassium is essential for flower development, and you seem to be having flower and flower fertility issues with your other crops in that mix.

Did you have your mix tested for nutrients and pH?

[clkingtx]

Very interesting idea, gorbelly. I never thought about pH. That I can check for here at home. As far as testing for nutrients, I will have to look into it. I'll have to find out if we have a local office that will do that. Thanks so much for your input!

[gorbelly]

It's just a guess but somewhere to start. What method do you use to test pH? I have a hard time finding a home meter that people can agree is accurate.

[clkingtx]

I use a liquid test. I take a sample of the soil, saturate it with RO water, then test the water with the plain color indicating liquid. It has served me well. Earlier in the season when my starts weren't growing, I was able to find that my mix was too acidic, and was able to monitor it as I raised it(it was a different soil mix than what I am having trouble with now)and the plant response verified the results. I know it is a crude method, but it works for me, and is cheap(cost is the greatest limitation on my gardening aspirations, lol).

I have heard that none of the inexpensive pH meters are reliable, but don't have any personal experience with them.