Green Zebra Cherry x Lange Ærmer variegated = a variegated F1?

[Jayc]

I’m growing 4, F1 seedlings Green Zebra Cherry x Lange Ærmer variegated and all the seedlings are starting to show variegation. I’m not quite sure why this is? I didn’t notice any variegation on the Green Zebra cherry I grew last year, I’m pretty sure the seeds were from Gleckler’s. Although I have seen some variegation on plants from a different source I’ve grown previously.

Lange Ærmer variegated, which I’ve called VAL for short (much better than LAV!), grew last year and plants grown from saved seed appear to be showing similar leaf colouring this year too. Although some parts of the plants don’t have any variegation at all.

I thought variegation was inherited through the maternal line? But I have another cross, a homebred dwarf x Variegated and a couple of these F2’s have variegation, I didn’t think that was meant to happen? Are there several different genes for variegation? And how does it show up in an F1? Sorry lots of questions.

I have another cross, VAL x Kosovo now at F2, although a fair number of seed sown, none are showing any variegation so far in similar age seedlings?

First picture is the F1, second VAL grown from seed this year.

[Tom Wagner]

Interesting data on the inheritance of the variegation. I will have to grow out the Lange Ærmer variegated tomato seed which you so kindly sent back to me. Somehow in my busy schedulae....I failed to sow that seed. Since I have little knowledge of the genetics involved...we all are learning. Thanks

[Jayc]

Thanks for your reply Tom. I'll be interested to hear if variegation is consistent for you too if you have the chance to sow them sometime.

I'm wondering how much environment plays a part as yesterday I noticed several more varieties showing variegation! Surprisingly mostly your varieties Banana Legs, Green Sausage and Stripes of Yore. Also on two Grubs Mystery Green, one PL the other a RL.

[Darren Abbey]

Traditional variegation is often due to a cytoplasmic factor. The chloroplasts have varying genetics and as cells divide, sometimes only one version of the chloroplast is passed to a daughter cell. In this case, the trait is only expected to pass through the maternal line.

If the variegation reappeared in the F2s, then a nuclear factor could be involved.

An alternate model is that it is an atypical mosaic virus that is causing the trait. Variegation turning up in unexpected varieties would be consistent with a viral process.

There's plenty of unknowns in the biology of plants (and tomatoes in particular), so you really can't discount a nuclear factor if the evidence is leading you to that conclusion.

[Heritage]

Jayc,

I had variegation on Green Zebra Cherry plants from Carolyn's SSE offering a few years ago. (it was a gift packet of seed) Growouts of seed from those plants also produced var. plants, but I didn't note the percentage. The var. on Green Zebra Cherry was barely noticeable - it required careful observation to distinguish it from leaf miner (or other insect) damage. If I remember correctly, Carolyn said that a grower in Wales (maybe you or your seed source?) was also getting var. Green Zebra Cherry plants.

Steve

Edit to add: the variegation was only noticeable on young plants.

[Jayc]

Hi Darren, thanks for your input, I'm afraid I don't fully understand some of the terms you have used, 'cytoplasmic factor and nuclear factor', but it does give me a base to search.
I'm not sure in this instance virus is the cause, unless an 'atypical mosaic virus?' would only have this affect? The plants appear otherwise healthy, they are mostly from different seed sources and grown in grown in two locations. But I will monitor their progress.

Hi Steve, thanks for the feedback on Green Zebra Cherry, I did send seed to Carolyn so it would seem likely they were the ones grown here. Similar results in variegation seen here, which again was most notable in younger plants, although some parts of the plant were well marked. Perhaps cooler growing temperatures here help show the colouration?

I wonder is it possible that variegation lies almost 'dormant' as it were in some varieties? I have some quite well marked Green Zebra Cherry x NSL187099 F2. I wonder which parent past the genes on or could it be a combination?

Pictures of Green Zebra Cherry x NSL187099 F2, both RL and PL found, variegation pattern is somewhat different from Variegated crosses.

[ChrisK]

NSL187099 has the marm allele which can cause variegation under the right environmental conditions (cool temps?)

See: http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/Gen...aspx?Gene=marm

There are several genes that can give variegation: GH, GH-2, Alb, Fd, others?

I'm not clear on what the genes are though as far as function. The only one I recall looking into was GH (ghost) and it is a carotenoid mutant, IIRC.

I'm not sure why you'd be seeing so many spontaneous mutants though and in F1s, if I read what you said correctly.

If anyone has more specific info on these genes and inheritance I'd love to be educated on them!

Originally Posted by Jayc

Hi Darren, thanks for your input, I'm afraid I don't fully understand some of the terms you have used, 'cytoplasmic factor and nuclear factor', but it does give me a base to search.
I'm not sure in this instance virus is the cause, unless an 'atypical mosaic virus?' would only have this affect? The plants appear otherwise healthy, they are mostly from different seed sources and grown in grown in two locations. But I will monitor their progress.

Hi Steve, thanks for the feedback on Green Zebra Cherry, I did send seed to Carolyn so it would seem likely they were the ones grown here. Similar results in variegation seen here, which again was most notable in younger plants, although some parts of the plant were well marked. Perhaps cooler growing temperatures here help show the colouration?

I wonder is it possible that variegation lies almost 'dormant' as it were in some varieties? I have some quite well marked Green Zebra Cherry x NSL187099 F2. I wonder which parent past the genes on or could it be a combination?

Pictures of Green Zebra Cherry x NSL187099 F2, both RL and PL found, variegation pattern is somewhat different from Variegated crosses.

[Jayc]

Picture updates on the variegated F1's. I raised 5 plants in the end, a picture of each fruit type produced.


133 by jayb 35, on Flickr


139 by jayb 35, on Flickr


146 by jayb 35, on Flickr


165 by jayb 35, on Flickr


169 by jayb 35, on Flickr

[Tom Wagner]

Interesting, Jayc, that the Lange Ærmer was able to throw any rounds at all since it should have been rather stable for a long tomato shape, and all the hybrids should have been like the last two in those beautiful pictures. Makes me wonder how the addition of whatever gene(s) came about.

I need to get my hybrids of variegated lines grown this winter before I can comment much. I used the variegated tomato as a male parent also.

I suspect that an inquiry to the TGRC would be in order.

For the record....I sent out a few samples of Lange Ærmer in my introduction of New World Seeds & Tubers in 2011. I sure don't know where the variegation came from as it was not in my crossing blocks prior to this year.

I've yet to extract seed of fruits I gathered down in Portland of the Lange Ærmer that I obtained from Trade Winds. Trade Winds offered the seed last season from grow outs of my seed bought in that first year 2011.

[carolyn137]

I can't help with specific genetics but can only review what I know.

Green Zebra Cherry, named by Reinhard Kraft, was found in a pint of mixed cherries in a store in Germany by Manfred Hahm. They were able to trace the fruits back to the Netherlands and that was the end of the trail.

I was one of the first in the US to grow what is known as Variegata/ Variegated, erroneously named Splash of Cream by a grower in either France or Belgium, I'd have to check.

I SSE listed it and at pretty much the same time Kees Sahin, now deceased, of Sahin Seeds in the Netherlands, had sent seeds of Variegata to SSE and it was listed in the Public catalog.

My Variegata seeds saved gave rise to variegated plants although the variegation was suppressed when it was hot.

It's been my understanding that accessions that TGRC has have to be propagated vegetatively in order to perpetuate that trait. In other words, I know of no other original variety or accession where saved seeds transmit the variegation. However, there have been many who have used Variegata to breed new varieties.

Yes, a few folks did get some varigated plants from seed of Green Zebra Cherry I sent out from my seed offers. The person who produced the seed had never grown anything variegated.

GZC traced back to the Netherlands and Kees Sahin in the Netherlands also having Variegata.....looks like a possible connection in some way. Sahin Seeds did not produce fruits for commercial markets but there are many Tomato Companies in the Netherlands that do in addition to the ones that breed new varieties.

And one of Kees' garden managers at that time was the son of the owner of one of those large companies.I don't rememember the name so I also don't rememember if that company produced fruits for commercial sales.

Sahin Seeds is now a subsidiary of Takii Seeds of Japan and in the following link you'll see Sahim Seeds clickable from the rest. Yes, several tomato varieties were bred by Sahin, including Bloody Butcher and Snowberry, etc.. but they are best known for flower seed and breeding flowers as well and have won many Fleuroselect Awards.

http://www.takii.eu/

http://www.takii.eu/

Perhaps some of the above might help, or not.

Carolyn, who became very good friends with Kees over the years, sent him seeds for several hundreds of varieties, he'd respond by sending chocolates to her and well she remembers those phone calls from him at ridiculous hours with his booming voice saying, Carolina, he never called me Carolyn. He had one the most outstanding tomato collections I've ever known, original packs from Ben Quisenberry, etc. I've always wondered what his wife did with that or even his two kids, who must be grown up by now, at least Paul,the eldest, and no doubt active in the seed company. Lastly,he also had a world class peony collection and was always pushing me to get involved in breeding peonies, especially Paeonia tenuifolia.

[ChrisK]

Carolyn, I'm a little confused. There seem to be several genes/alleles that can cause variegation listed at TGRC (I listed them above). I don't see any mention that they have to be vegetatively propagated.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

It's been my understanding that accessions that TGRC has have to be propagated vegetatively in order to perpetuate that trait. In other words, I know of no other original variety or accession where saved seeds transmit the variegation.

[Jayc]

Thanks Tom, I'm very much on a learning curve, I'd just assumed the F1's would be round, with the possibility of some variance due to the variegated Lange Ærmer (VAL) not being fully stable. I'm glad I grew several F1's to see the variety shown. I hope you also find that variegation can be passed from the pollen donor.

Thank you for the detailed information Carolyn. The variegation I saw on these plants is not such a bold patten as the variety Variegation, nor is it quite the same as NSL187099 (marm) I think I shall start a few of the seeds I've saved just to see if the variegation colouration is repeated. Taste was good. I also have seeds from a a few crosses which at the moment have variegated leaves. I had hoped to start a couple to grow indoors this winter from a small growing dwarf x Variegated which produced a few plants with variegation in the F2. I've saved seeds from which I thought the best, a black fruited dwarf and a small growing determinate with pale yellow fruit, both with variegated leaves.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Carolyn, I'm a little confused. There seem to be several genes/alleles that can cause variegation listed at TGRC (I listed them above). I don't see any mention that they have to be vegetatively propagated.

Yes Chris, I read your post #7 and some of the genes you mentioned.

I think the question has to do with which genes are transmitted via seed and which are transmitted ONLY vegetatively. And TGRC does not tell you that it just lists genes and their traits. Only those who grow out some of the TGRC accessions, which are available only to breeders and that has to be documented, as Keith has done, and I think a few others as well, can determine if those variegated genes do transmit via seed or only via vegetative perpetuation.

I know of no other variety or accession to date, other than Variegated/Variegata, where the trait is transmitted via seed.

I go to TGRC not much but have never seen info after a gene/allele designation that says transmitted by seed or only vegetatively, speaking now to your comment above. Theonlyperson I've ever spoken directly to there was Dr. Chatelet who was a great help in clarifying the origin of Sara's Galapagos. But when Criag and I were copublishing Off the Vine Craig interviewed Dr. Rick directly.

I remember well Keith Mueller posting pictures of TGRC variegated accessions and commenting that the variegation could only be transmitted vegetatively.

Keith got his MS degree with Dr. Randy Gardner and Keith is one of the brightest and most knowledgeable persons I know when it comes to tomato genetics/

If you don't know of him, here's a link to his website, which is primarily informational with lots of links for almost everything. And detailed instructions on how to breed tomatoes, what genetic segregation is all about and why it matters,and so much more.

On the first page if you click on where it says tomatoes for autism charity, his son is autistic, you'll see some of the varieties already released and some in the works, eg. the variegated ones.

http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/

I've posted links to some of his posts at message sites and here's one I've posted many times here which has to do with so called black tomatoes and gf alleles and showing that Cherokee Purple is not 100 years old as John Green was told by the woman who gave him the seeds and John passed that on to Craig,who named it Cherokee Purple.

Below he's posting as mulio and scroll down to the post of April 21.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...529042.html?13

All for now,

Carolyn

[ChrisK]

Thanks, yes, I've sent many people to kdcomm for basic genetics.

I remember well Keith Mueller posting pictures of TGRC variegated accessions and commenting that the variegation could only be transmitted vegetatively.

If you have a link to this I'd love to see it.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Jayc

Thanks Tom, I'm very much on a learning curve, I'd just assumed the F1's would be round, with the possibility of some variance due to the variegated Lange Ærmer (VAL) not being fully stable. I'm glad I grew several F1's to see the variety shown. I hope you also find that variegation can be passed from the pollen donor.

Thank you for the detailed information Carolyn. The variegation I saw on these plants is not such a bold patten as the variety Variegation, nor is it quite the same as NSL187099 (marm) I think I shall start a few of the seeds I've saved just to see if the variegation colouration is repeated. Taste was good. I also have seeds from a a few crosses which at the moment have variegated leaves. I had hoped to start a couple to grow indoors this winter from a small growing dwarf x Variegated which produced a few plants with variegation in the F2. I've saved seeds from which I thought the best, a black fruited dwarf and a small growing determinate with pale yellow fruit, both with variegated leaves.

JayC, your post was not up when I was doing mine,

So it seems that there's more than one gene for variegation that is definitely known to be transmitted via seed although I said above I knew of only one?

So anyone here please list them, and they now include: WAIT, a huge problem b'c of so many newer varieties that were bred using the original Variegated/ Variegated.

Whatever, but I don't count those at all.

Variegata/ Variegated ( gene not known)

NSL 187099 ( marm gene)

VAL of Tom's, ( gene not known, nor background)

Carolyn, who suggests that we don't list all the known varieties shown by pictures to have variegation when it turned out to be bird doo.