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A garden is only as good as the ground that it's planted in. Discussion forum for the many ways to improve the soil where we plant our gardens.

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Old April 17, 2014   #1
Vicmeister
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Default 2014 Professional Soil Test Results...YIKES

Hoping someone has some good ground advice for me.

I received the results from my soil test today, and I was a bit shocked. I was expecting to have no nutrients in the ground....and found out I'm way high. To do the test, you dig down a foot into the soil in five separate places, dig out dirt and mix it in a bucket, then send in two cups of that to the lab.

The ground I have does not drain well, but it has a big mix of St. Helens ash in it. The area I live in received the largest amount of ash from the fallout in 1980, so it is actually layered in the ground and you can see it if you dig in spots that have not been torn up yet.

This area was only touched last year for the first time in at least 10 years, possibly more. I bought the house from an older lady who no longer took care of the yard. So last year was the first time of using any kind of fertilizer, which I planted tomatoes, peppers, carrots and cucumbers and used the miracle grow liquafeed for veggies.

Since my results were complete opposite of what I was expecting....what do I need to do, if anything, to lower the levels? PH is at 7.7, I have quite a bit of organic material compared to other people's tests I've seen in the area....and that's as far as I know. Do I mess with the soil at all, do I just forego fertilizer this year?

Any and all help is MUCH APPRECIATED!
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Old April 17, 2014   #2
Redbaron
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I recommend San Marzanos!
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Old April 17, 2014   #3
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Agree with Red baron, plant it up. Acid loving plants Like blueberries, maybe not but I would say most other things should do fine. Should be minimal need for additional fertilizer. I would not attempt to alter the ph except adding peat moss maybe if you like. That is a good soil test. Enjoy your fertile soil
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Old April 17, 2014   #4
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I have been doing some thinking since I posted. You did say the soil doesn't drain well. Over all it is a good base soil, but there is some room for improvement.

Basically you have this: Andisols Which isn't bad at all.

But you would benefit greatly by creating a deep mollic epipedon. That would help with the Ph and also with the drainage. Mollic epipedons are created by the mutualistic symbiotic relationship between plant roots, soil microorganisms, and larger soil life like worms.

The way you can accomplish this would be to follow these basic principles:
1) Never till or cultivate.
2) Use mulches for weed control. Never have bare soil.
3) Try to use companion cropping and/or living mulches with your crops. No mono-cultures.
4) Use multi species cover crops between your garden rotations.
5) Use a mycorrhiza and bacteria inoculate.
6) Always have a living root at all times in as much of the A horizon as possible.
7) Try to avoid chemical ferts as much as possible, use manure and/or compost instead.

The worms will do the rest. With that base it should become optimal prime soil very quickly. Good luck.
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Old April 17, 2014   #5
Vicmeister
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This year I decided to try more of a paste tomato, and have San Marzano and Opalka growing under the lights right now! So I have that taken care of But I have to ask...is there a real reason for that, or is it just a favorite??

And karen...I have two blueberry plants in my kitchen waiting to go outside right now haha

Isn't there such thing as too much though? I thought it could act like a poison and kill the plants?

As far as mulch....I got some last year, but it was the generic mulch at Lowes. Is that okay to use, or should I be looking at something else?

I have a book called Tomatoes love carrots, so I started looking through that for the companion information last year. I planted carrots in with the tomatoes, and had a bunch of herbs and sunflowers out there as well. I plan to put the tomatoes where the rows of sunflowers were last year, and move the peppers into an area that gets afternoon shade. Last year the peppers were getting sunburned. I'll look through that and see what else it says to do.

And worms....I am sad about worms. I don't see very many in the garden. I did see a mass murder of worms last year, I had several hundred come up to the surface in the grass and die off one night, but I don't see them when I'm digging. Maybe they are lower in the soil.
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Old April 17, 2014   #6
Redbaron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicmeister View Post
This year I decided to try more of a paste tomato, and have San Marzano and Opalka growing under the lights right now! So I have that taken care of But I have to ask...is there a real reason for that, or is it just a favorite??

As far as mulch....I got some last year, but it was the generic mulch at Lowes. Is that okay to use, or should I be looking at something else?

I have a book called Tomatoes love carrots, so I started looking through that for the companion information last year. I planted carrots in with the tomatoes, and had a bunch of herbs and sunflowers out there as well. I plan to put the tomatoes where the rows of sunflowers were last year, and move the peppers into an area that gets afternoon shade. Last year the peppers were getting sunburned. I'll look through that and see what else it says to do.

And worms....I am sad about worms. I don't see very many in the garden. I did see a mass murder of worms last year, I had several hundred come up to the surface in the grass and die off one night, but I don't see them when I'm digging. Maybe they are lower in the soil.
The theory is that San Marzano is adapted to the volcanic soils of the region of Italy where it came from. The theory goes on further that the reason San Marzano fails for some people and does well for others is because of this. I can't test this theory, but I have read about this here at tomatoville and many other places. The comment was a 1/2 joke, 1/2 serious. At least you got part of the combination, the volcanic soil. You don't really have the climate of Italy though. Who knows?

Yes, it is possible to have too much. And yes it is possible to kill you plants and even possible that's what killed the worms. That's why I recommended to not use chemical ferts and try and build up a mollic epipedon. That will lock up the nutrients and make them stored for future use, while helping prevent an overload right now.

It is kinda complicated to explain. But basically I'll try to simplify it for you, carbon in the soil in the form of humus adsorbs nutrients in a process called your cation exchange rate. Cation exchange capacity should be thought of as the soil's ability to remove nutrient cations from the soil water solution and sequester those to be exchanged later as the plant roots release hydrogen ions to the solution. Carbon is a very good medium for holding (adsorbing) the cations. That's one reason we use activated charcoal for filtering water. Mycorrhiza are evolved to release those nutrient cations from the carbon as needed by the plant. The plant "pays" for this service by excreting sugars in the rhizosphere. That feeds a whole unseen web of life in the soil which worms and many billions of other organisms are a part. Their waste creates more humus (carbon), increasing the soil cation exchange rate even more! The worm holes help with drainage. It is really a beautiful and fascinating system the deeper you dig. (pun intended )

But don't dig. Tilling or plowing allows excess oxygen in the soil, which oxidizes the carbon in the humus forming carbon dioxide CO2 and letting that CO2 escape to the atmosphere. Any cations that were adsorbed on that carbon are then released in the soil. In average or nutrient poor soil, that might be a temporary good thing until you run out of humus. That's partly why farmers have been plowing for thousands of years. But for you, it might release too much nutrients, killing the plants and the worms. You adding miracle grow nutrients wouldn't have helped if that was the case. It's possible. Hard to say for sure. It is very complicated and I am just at a keyboard on the internet. I haven't even seen your soil. But you asked for advise. So my advise would be to try your best to use biomimicry to restore the soil biome as good as you can and let the worms do the tilling and fertilizing for you. At least for now.

What you need to do is plant understory companion plants like those carrots you mentioned. Basil is another one proven to work with tomatoes. Then after the tomatoes die, plant a mixed species cool season cover crop good at scavenging nutrients. Winter wheat, or cereal rye, daikon radishes, vetches and clovers, snow peas etc..... Then before you plant next year just mow it down, cover with paper and hay/straw mulch, and plant your tomatoes or whatever right into that. It shouldn't take long at all for the worms to come back.

Good luck.
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Last edited by Redbaron; April 17, 2014 at 02:14 PM.
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Old April 17, 2014   #7
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The main purpose of a soil test is to identify deficiencies you can correct. You don't have deficiencies and that is a good thing.
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Old April 17, 2014   #8
Vicmeister
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Karen, I thought it was also to fix high ones, so it's good to know I'm okay this year

Red Baron, thank you! I'm going to have to spend some time researching what you're saying so I can figure out how to make my ground work.

Couple of quick questions though, as I'm reading this on my lunch....I've been trying to do a climate check in italy to see what they have, but not having much luck. If they need less heat and sun I can put them in the shade...I'm hoping they don't need the humid air or the rain, although I can fix that with sprinklers. Would you mind giving a quick "perfect climate" like it would have in italy and I can see what I can do?

Also on the no digging....I don't think I can get around that. The dirt is so hard and compacted, I can't put a shovel down the full length of it's head, even when jumping on it. BUT for the future, maybe the worms would help loosen it up? Maybe I need to buy a big barrel full of worms??
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Old April 17, 2014   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicmeister View Post
Karen, I thought it was also to fix high ones, so it's good to know I'm okay this year

Red Baron, thank you! I'm going to have to spend some time researching what you're saying so I can figure out how to make my ground work.

Couple of quick questions though, as I'm reading this on my lunch....I've been trying to do a climate check in italy to see what they have, but not having much luck. If they need less heat and sun I can put them in the shade...I'm hoping they don't need the humid air or the rain, although I can fix that with sprinklers. Would you mind giving a quick "perfect climate" like it would have in italy and I can see what I can do?

Also on the no digging....I don't think I can get around that. The dirt is so hard and compacted, I can't put a shovel down the full length of it's head, even when jumping on it. BUT for the future, maybe the worms would help loosen it up? Maybe I need to buy a big barrel full of worms??
I know nothing of Italy, sorry. It is just a half humorous hypothesis many people were bandying about on the forums. I don't even know if it is true or not about San Marzanos growing better in Italy. I have no idea. Tomatoes need full sun though. I know that.

As far as jumping on shovels trying to dig the soil. I weigh well over 200 pounds and that's exactly what I did the first year here in Oklahoma. I jumped and jumped and jumped till my feet hurt so bad I had to stop. Ruined my shoes too! And that's on only 2 or 3 shovel wide rows 10 feet long. I simply couldn't do it. Gave up. Laid newspaper down 6 layers thick and covered it with mulch. A year later, like magic, beautiful soil I can dig with my bare hands. 5 years later deep beautiful soil I can dig with my bare hands. Who knows what it will be in 10 years?

And the biggest thing I learned from all that was the small part of the garden I did manage to dig up. That part is not as good as the part I just covered with newspaper and mulch right over sod. I got to thinking about that long and hard. All my energy and work to dig the soil and get some organic matter dug into the ground actually had the opposite effect. The ground I left alone did better. It is then I realized worms are far smarter than me.

All I can tell you is that you need to trust the worms. They are far better at this than any human.
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Last edited by Redbaron; April 17, 2014 at 04:43 PM.
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Old April 20, 2014   #10
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I think your ph is too high to grow really good tomatoes but mine got that high a few years ago and I have brought it down by adding lots of cottonseed meal, pine bark and using no liming products at all. Since you already have a surplus of nutrients except maybe nitrogen your soil might benefit from adding a lot of pine bark fines but they will lower your nitrogen levels so it might work to add some cottonseed meal at the same time to balance out the loss of nitrogen. The pine bark fines will help with the compaction of the soil and cottonseed meal will draw any nearby earthworms. You might also want to check on those boron levels and see if they are dangerously high for plants. I have been told that if you ever get too much boron it will negatively affect many plants.

A friend of mine whose phosphate levels got extremely high was told by the university specialist that planting hairy vetch is a good way to take out some of the phosphorous; but not to till it back in or use it as a mulch but rather to mow it and bag it so it can be removed along with the phosphorous it sucked out of the soil. Do not add any cow manure to your garden as that is how his P levels got so high according to the agricultural scientist he consulted.

I have to till my beds every year or tree roots take over but by using bark or wood mulches my soil stays soft all year and doesn't pack down. I still add organic mater but no cow manure anymore. I do add my own compost full of worms and rotted straw along with cottonseed meal and alfalfa meal every year and my worm population is huge. Years ago when I used the old bagged commercial fertilizers I had few worms and my soil would compact terribly just a few weeks after tilling.

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Old April 20, 2014   #11
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I agree on the comment that the pH is too high. I read here several times that tomatoes like a pH of 6.8. Here in Fl, our soil tends to have a pH of around 8 because our state is made up of mostly limestone. The master gardeners here recommend amending with pine bark fines.
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Old April 20, 2014   #12
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I would add sulfur to lower the PH, pine bark fines, cottonseed meal, maybe even peat moss, if you can till it in before it blows away! You can buy elemental sulfur. No way are your blueberries going to live in the current conditions. I would suggest keeping them in pots, or building a raised bed. The sulfur on the report is as a nutrient for plants, you would be adding not as a nutrient, but as a way to lower the PH. It takes 6 months to work. Peat moss is even more acidic that pine bark. Pine bark tends to lose it's acidity with time. Peat will stay acidic until it breaks down. I would use both. Pine bark lasts a long time and will condition the soil well, peat will lower your PH right away and attract worms. Sulfur will eventually kick in, and as long as it is there keep PH lower. I would add more of all three plus cottonseed every year. Alfalfa as mentioned would certainly condition soil too, you might want to add dry molasses too to attract beneficial bacteria, and act as an organic fertilizer. Your total organic matter is not really very high, and is certainly the reason for the compaction.
For blueberries a 1-1-1 ratio is good 1 part pine bark fines, 1 part peat, 1 part perlite or a good acidic potting soil for azalea's or something like that is OK too, instead of perlite. I myself use this ratio for blueberries but use diatomaceous earth instead of perlite.
I have 7 blueberry plants. 3 are in raised beds (my soil has a ph of 6.5 which is still way too high, and not worth even trying to amend to lower), and 4 in pots.
This will be the third year for the in ground plants, still young, but will produce. The ones in pots are all new this year (I ran out of raised bed to put them in!).
The ideal PH for blueberries is about 4.8. 5.8 is one hundred times more basic, 6.8 is one hundred times more basic than 5.8. 7.7 is almost one hundred times more basic than 6.8. (The PH scale is logarithmic) Your blueberries will die in that soil.


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Old April 22, 2014   #13
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Thanks guys!

I'll have to see where I can purchase some of these items, like pine bar fines and cottonseed meal, maybe some hairy vetch. I hear people say newspaper quite a bit, but that worries me a bit as the ink and stuff they use for the paper seems detrimental to the ground. I definitely need to get a bunch of worms in there though.
The soil hasn't been touched for at least ten years, maybe longer until I used the foliar spray last year. The PH level is consistent with the area, but I'll definitely need to do something for blueberries.
As far as growing tomatoes here goes, they grew insane last year. That was the first year I planted them at my house, and my largest plant was 6 feet tall and 5 feet wide. I was pruning a couple times a week to keep it in check. I put a couple pictures in my album here of some tomatoes from last year on the scale, largest was 2 lbs. I had 3 plants and had several apple boxes full of tomatoes I was pawning off on people, and several ended up dropping on the ground. I got tired of picking! yet this year, I'm looking at maybe 10 or 15 tomato plants.....Dunno what I'm thinking. Last year I had 23 cucumber plants and couldn't keep up with all the cukes lol
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Old April 23, 2014   #14
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Well you have the best interpretation of the results that you could get. The garden grew like mad last year and should do so again this year.
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Old April 23, 2014   #15
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You know what completely TANKED last year??? CARROTS. Carrots did NOT like the soil at all. Luckily I'm allergic to carrots so I only planted them to help out the tomatoes, which I'll do again this year but they are not happy critters.

I'm excited to be able to do some of the amending I've read here. I am not too keen on dumping chemicals on the ground to fix stuff, so to hear ways to improve the ground is awesome. I'm glad blueberries was mentioned as well as I was planning on dumping them in the ground...so now I know I have to do a few other things instead. I need to go find pine bark fines as soon as I can.

And on a side note, I'm going to try planting peppers in a more shaded area of my garden this year to see how they do. It said full sun, but I think it was just too hot and sunny here for the peppers as any that saw sunlight got sunburned They were even next to the sunflowers which should have shaded them some! Hoping my tree does the job instead.

I need to find a worm dance as I definitely need to get the worm count up. When I went outside and found the pile of hundreds of worms one morning all dead (still not sure why), I wanted to cry. Over worms.
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