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Old March 27, 2006   #16
travis
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[edited to remove double posted message]
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Old March 29, 2006   #17
michael johnson
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I have read all the differing opinions etc, of those fully opposed to any method other than fermentation, chlorine uses in tapwater etc,etc, and I accept that this is their opinion- not mine, I still firmly believe that properly ripened seeds are best, from dead ripe tomatoes, as this is the plant and natures own way of distributing its own seeds, for example- a tomato plant wouldnt dream of ever trying to drop tomatoes onto the ground when only the bottom end had a slight red blush- it waits until very ripe and then drop off, thats why so many volunteer plants come up the following spring, natures way is best-with no short cuts in between, and besides- many of the drop off tomatoes end up with seeds coated with all sorts of gunge inside the tomato husk, some of them nearly black- and still they come up.


What I find absolutly hilarious about this whole thing is the fact that one of the realy bad seeds that didnt show during one month of trying for me and seem to have no chance of germination, came to me via a semi-vendor in the USA - who ( and here is the punch line )- only recieved them two weeks prior to sharing them with me for a price, from one of the main critics of my methods of seed saving, and who is a staunch insister on the fermentation method, now if that isn't an absolute LOL I dont know what is,my supplier scource also had no luck with the rest of the seeds either, not one single seed germinated.and they had to remove them from their website as a failed crop.
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Old March 29, 2006   #18
carolyn137
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Michael,

Clearly you are referring to me as the source of a variety that didn't germinate for you.

I have distributed both very old and fresh seed to many folks.

All the fresh seed, and the date is written on the pack, is known to germinate well from lots of feedback, but most of the older seed is known NOT to germinate well and each person was told to soak the seeds in the manner in which which I told them to and each pack had "soak" written on the seed pack by me.

Some of the very old seed may take up to two months to germinate and they also know that.

So whatever it is from me, it isn't fresh seed that I know about germination from SSE listings and otherwise, but older seed known to have problems germinating.

If you wish to tell me the variety I can tell you the exact seed age you were sent if that was not done when the seeds were sent to you.

Better to be up front about this rather than make direct accusations without giving details.

And if folks are distributing old seed I sent them without giving the seed age and telling the recipent about the germination problems and how to soak them, I must say that that concerns me very much.
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Old March 29, 2006   #19
michael johnson
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Hello Carolyn, I have PM-d you with details.
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Old March 29, 2006   #20
tanagerzoo
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Michael,
You'll have to email Carolyn--as she has said several times, PMing her doesn't work well for her.

Secondly, I have to say this--your post was very rude. Making inferrances like that on a public board was unnecessary. If you had problems with some seed that you had acquired from someone here--whether it is Carolyn or someone else--the proper thing to do--obviously--is to email that person. Throwing a flaming spear at someone and making it into a joke on a *public* board is passive aggressive and offensive. You owe her an apology for the method in which you had handled this situation. It looks to me that you started this entire thread as means of revenge.

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Old March 29, 2006   #21
michael johnson
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christine, I already did, before I new about the PM problem.
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Old March 29, 2006   #22
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Thank you, Christine, for posting what I was thinking.

Kurt, who is tiring of the attitude from mj.

Sorry for stealing your sign-off style Carolyn. I just love the whole "here's my name, comma, and here's what I really think" layout.
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Old March 29, 2006   #23
carolyn137
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Yes, Micahel did pm me and yes I get all pm's sent to me, it's just a bother having to go back and forth between AOL and IE to get here.

And I'm going to share with all of you what the seeds were and why what Michael said doesn't even make sense.

And Michael, in my response to your pm I forgot one very important fact, and that's b/c you stated, see below, that somone paid me for the seeds, but that is entirely untrue.

You posted above:

(fact that one of the realy bad seeds that didnt show during one month of trying for me and seem to have no chance of germination, came to me via a semi-vendor in the USA - who ( and here is the punch line )- only recieved them two weeks prior to sharing them with me for a price, from one of the main critics of my methods)

The seeds in question are Wes seeds that were saved in 2004.

I do not list them in the SSE Yearbook thus no one has paid me for Wes seeds via an SSE request.

What I've done is to distribute them free, in small amounts.

In the Spring of 2004 I realized that I had very few old seeds of Wes, Chapman and Red Penna, all varieties I love, so I grew them out and saved lots of seed.

I sent out seed for all three as freebies to folks, 1/person on a rotating basis, who sent me SSE requests in the Spring of 2005. One person relisted them in the 2006 SSE Yearbook and I pointed that out to Michael and gave him a reference.

I used those same 2004 Wes seeds to raise plants last Spring to give away and germination was fine.

I also offered fresh 2004 Wes seeds with several other 2004 seeds in my last large seed offer at GW last Spring, although the majority of those seeds were much older seeds. The Wes seeds were not older seeds.

Those of you who got those fresh seeds from me know that I sent out 5-7 seed only of Wes, Chapman, Red Penna, Variegated and many more, while sending out a larger number of seeds for the old ones.

And you'll also remember that I asked for feedback on the seeds sent out, and there was a long thread about it and the fresh seeds of Wes germinated just fine.

In summary, no one has paid me for Wes seeds as Michael claimed since I didn't list those 2004 seeds at SSE. Someone who got them as a freebie did relist them in the 2006 Yearbook, so the seeds did germinate. I grew seedlings from the same seeds last Spring.

I can't see anyone sending Michael the 5-7 Wes seeds I sent to others and suggested to him that perhaps the person he got the seeds from sent their own saved seeds. But that was before I came here and reread what he said about being sent seeds from someone who just got them this Spring and PAID me for them, which is completely untrue since I did not list those 2004 seeds at SSE. Since 2000 I have listed ONLY seeds not listed by anyone else, as in new varieties.

I'm so very sorry this has happened, but I will defend myself when it comes to allegations about my seeds that I distribute to others, actually over 2000 packets sent out free in the two seasons before this last one and a small free one offered here two weeks ago.

I've been distributing the older seeds b'c most are available to only SSE members, if indeed they have current relistings, and many are quite hard to come by, as many of you know, and as both Craig and I know, if we don't distribute the older seeds, as he has also done, they're just going to go to zero viability sitting in vials, when others might be able to enjoy many of them as we both have.

And I make no claims for pure seeds either, since I don't bag blossoms. And I have such a disclaimer in my SSE blurb and also made the SAME statement when distributing seeds at GW and also here at Tville most recently. I know the 2004 seeds of Kelleher's Oxheart that I distributed for free were crossed and that came out in that long thread on feedback at GW.

it's easy for me to defend fresh 2004 seeds such as Wes where germination is involved but as every single person who got the older seeds knows, I make no promises and that was stated prominently in each of the two seed offers at GW when those were offered, and suggestions given as to how to wake them up, if indeed they still had viability, as many did, and I still can't get over the close to 80-90% germination for the Red Brandywine seeds from 1993.

But I digress.
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Old March 29, 2006   #24
SelfSufficient1
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Quote:
Throwing a flaming spear at someone and making it into a joke on a *public* board is passive aggressive and offensive. You owe her an apology for the method in which you had handled this situation. It looks to me that you started this entire thread as means of revenge.
I agree. Now wouldn't it have just been so much easier to just ask Carolyn about the seeds. She could have told you all this above and who knows maybe she could have told you where you could get more seeds for this variety.

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my supplier scource also had no luck with the rest of the seeds either, not one single seed germinated.and they had to remove them from their website as a failed crop.
Since Carolyn only sent out a few seeds of these it is obvious that if this person had them listed on their website that they had to have grown out their seeds from her, saved seeds from them and listed them . Therefore it must have been their seeds that were not viable.

I also would like to know if you have never germinated seeds that were fermented? Obviously this can't be the problem with your few that didn't come up since lots and lots of other people have germinated fermented seeds.
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Old March 29, 2006   #25
carolyn137
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An addedum to the above.

When I got back to AOL I found an e-mail from Michael, where he says that the woman from whom he got the seeds had removed them from her website, this is presumably the same woman he got the seeds from, so he assumes they didn't germinate for her either.

Now this really doesn't make any sense since I've only sent out 5-7 seeds of Wes to anyone and so how could she be offering seeds of Wes she says she paid me for and also offering them to thers at a website, when the most seeds she ever could have gotten was 5-7 seeds either from my seed offer at GW , or as a freebie with my SSE requests, and perhaps even from my seed offer here at Tville, about two weeks ago when I distributed pre=packed seeds of starter amounts here ( I can't remember without checking if I did send out Wes seed here, but it makes no difference, no one paid me for them, I sent them free with not even a SASE asked for and there could have been as many as 10-15 seeds in those packs.)

Michael also apologized if he upset me and said he would not be posting in this thread again.

Michael, that's all well and good for you to apologize, but it leaves open to question much of what you've posted here about the source of your seeds and the fact that you said the woman paid for them and the fact they are known to germinate just fine, as feedback from many folks.

Perhaps it's best to let this whole subject about 2004 Wes seeds lie fallow since you won't be posting here in this thread in order to give some answers.

I too, am disturbed at your attitide, and that goes back to your thread where you made some very serious accusations about a person in Canada about seeds.

I know you'll be reading here so my message to you is, please don't take everything that folks might say in terms of correcting you about misstatements that you might make, so very personally.

When you say BER is a disease when it isn't, or when you say there is no germination inhibitor, when there is, or say that rinsing seeds in tap water that has chlorine works, when I know the chlorine amount is insufficient, please know that I would have done the same to correct the misstatements no matter who had posted that wrong information.

As for differences in seed saving, I respect them, and told you that. But I'm also going to point out the pros and cons of various methods from my experience, and that's what it is, my opinion based on many years experience using several different methods.

And all of us are entitled to post our opinions.
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Old March 29, 2006   #26
michael johnson
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Just one last post to clarify things- as you obviously missunderstood my meaning.

If I mistakenly led you to believe that the women paid you for the Wes seeds, she didnt,

what I thought I said was- she charged ( me ) for the seeds, not you. I do hope that clarifys the situation.

But anyhow - I am sorry . lets forget all about it as I shant be posting on this post again.

And to those few that think what I said was a bit rough, rude, and other pointed remarks, ( "Tough ") if you cant see that it cuts both ways, and are quite prepared to watch people pull me to pieces, but when the shoe is on the other foot it appears to be a different kettle of fish altogether to those that like to dish out the flak but cant appear to take it like a man or a woman whichever fits.

And when I said that I didnt mean you Carolyn.
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Old March 29, 2006   #27
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I don't think anyone gave you any "flak" or that you were "pulled to peices", I think you were "corrected" and if you look back on the post I myself was "corrected" several times, however I didn't react the way you did. I don't mind being corrected because I am happy people here are helping me learn. I am not so closed minded that I can't take what other people say into consideration(not that you are I was just saying that I am not).

Perhaps you should get with the person who sold you the seeds and let that person know how you feel instead of taking it out on people you shouldn't.
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Old March 29, 2006   #28
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http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/3085.html
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Old March 31, 2006   #29
travis
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"I too, am disturbed at your attitide, and that goes back to your thread where you made some very serious accusations about a person in Canada about seeds. " [Carolyn]

Yes, that was my take on this thread too ... same as the deleted thread where Michael unfairly piled on the Canadian fellow who he accused of bilking Michael's "friend in the U.K." That thread was deleted and this one should be too since it has served absolutely no useful purpose that a simple seed saving FAQ could better serve.

And on a closing note, "natural" ain't always best, as in "that's the way tomatoes 'naturally' spread their seeds year to year, etc." Let's remember that viruses, bacteria, foliage disorders, etc., are product of "natural" processes as well; yet we strive to control them by "manmade" means. Oh ... and by the way ... fermentation is "Nature's Way" of dealing with some of those "natural" parasites.

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Old March 31, 2006   #30
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Thank you for the link. I think I'll just go ahead and ferment, lol.
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