Hybrid is as Hybrid does

[GunnarSK]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I'm still waiting for some new seeds to arrive. Yesterday two new ones from Clara (Germany)came, she'd sent some great ones earlier, I love the name of one that came yesterday called Heartbreaker in translation, waiting for some seeds from Fred Hempel, and still waiting for seeds from Marina in Russia. She got mine, and we sent each other seeds just one day apart, but mine aren't here yet.
You're not going anywhere, nor am I so when things calm down I'll get back to you, I will, on some of what you said in your original post, with which I don't agree.
But quickly, my selection for what Craig and I named OTV Brandywine was based on the picture that was sent back to Craig L, who had sent seeds of Yellow Brandywine to this person and the picture and F2 seeds were sent back to Craig.So I tried to select for a large red beefsteak on a plant with PL foliage as was shown in the picture from the F2 seeds sent back.And it took me out to the F5 or F6, I can't remember right now. No greenhouse growing, just 5-6 long years making selections each summer.
Carolyn

Yes, we'll probably never know (unless genetic testing becomes commonplace) how Green Doctors came about in the first place. I know sometimes Kozula grew two or even three generations per year in polytunnels while she was a marketgrower, so some of her crosses come in several generations depending on who did the growout (eg. F4 to F8).

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by GunnarSK

Yes, we'll probably never know (unless genetic testing becomes commonplace) how Green Doctors came about in the first place. I know sometimes Kozula grew two or even three generations per year in polytunnels while she was a marketgrower, so some of her crosses come in several generations depending on who did the growout (eg. F4 to F8).

Gunnar, you've got me almost totally confused,please don't do that, b/c what you quoted above was my repsonse to Paddy, not my response to you about GD, GDF and the rest.

Carolyn

[GunnarSK]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Gunnar, you've got me almost totally confused,please don't do that, b/c what you quoted above was my repsonse to Paddy, not my response to you about GD, GDF and the rest.

Carolyn

Sorry for quoting the wrong part. I also wanted to ask (anyone), if seed sent to or from Dmitry in Bryansk, Russia, arrived. I'm asking, because he also has some trades with members of ForumOgrodnicze in Poland.

[AKmark]

Pretty consistant, grew the hybrid for years, the open pollinated version actually is pretty darn impressive.

[antichevarieta]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Well done Steve.

What also bothers me is that the most of the persons buying these unstable hybrids don't really know what you posted above, may just put out one plant and think they have what they should have, which in reality is wrong b'c a responsible hybridizer will put out maybe 20 or so plants in just one season for a particular cross, making selections, sometimes many selections, and treating each of those lines separately. And doing it all over again for each of those selections.

When he or she makes some final decisions as to which selections are close to what the hybridizer is looking for that looks good, or even what's not being looked for that looks good and tastes good, then they have to be grown out for the generations you noted above until stable.

Which is why in my list of experiemental ones in my current seed offer, now closed, I spoke to that issue directly, for the three that I listed.All are works in progress as I see it.

Carolyn

does this mean that i should not save Gary'O Sena seeds?

[antichevarieta]

Originally Posted by GunnarSK

Yes, we'll probably never know (unless genetic testing becomes commonplace) how Green Doctors came about in the first place. I know sometimes Kozula grew two or even three generations per year in polytunnels while she was a marketgrower, so some of her crosses come in several generations depending on who did the growout (eg. F4 to F8).

can green doctors seed be saved?

[carolyn137]

I'm answering your two questions in one post.

Gary'O Sena was bred by Keith Mueller who is a very well known tomato breeder and all the OP ones he's released are stable, so yes, you can save seeds from it.

http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/releases/

His website is wonderful and if you go back to the home page you'll see how much information is there.

Green Doctors seed can be saved, but it's turned out that seed saved from it also gives some plants that have fruits with a clear epidermis and those have been named Green Doctors Frosted.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Green_Doctors

Seed sources for both varieties can be found by going to Tania's wonderful data base website and best to search, since you know the names, using the alphabetical method.

First click on shortcuts at the top of the home page, then click on the alphabetical way of searching.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Main_Page

Hope that helps,

Carolyn

[antichevarieta]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I'm answering your two questions in one post.

Gary'O Sena was bred by Keith Mueller who is a very well known tomato breeder and all the OP ones he's released are stable, so yes, you can save seeds from it.

http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/releases/

His website is wonderful and if you go back to the home page you'll see how much information is there.

Green Doctors seed can be saved, but it's turned out that seed saved from it also gives some plants that have fruits with a clear epidermis and those have been named Green Doctors Frosted.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Green_Doctors

Seed sources for both varieties can be found by going to Tania's wonderful data base website and best to search, since you know the names, using the alphabetical method.

First click on shortcuts at the top of the home page, then click on the alphabetical way of searching.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Main_Page

Hope that helps,

Carolyn

Hi Carolyn,
Thanks so much for your speedy reply.
i grow heirloom tomatoes outside of Parma, Italy and these two varieties are amazing ...healthy, productive, no splits, excellent taste...couldn't ask for better.
The farm where i work specializes in heirloom Italian tomatoes so if you would like any seeds or have any questions I would be happy to help you.
saluti!
roberta

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by antichevarieta

Hi Carolyn,
Thanks so much for your speedy reply.
i grow heirloom tomatoes outside of Parma, Italy and these two varieties are amazing ...healthy, productive, no splits, excellent taste...couldn't ask for better.
The farm where i work specializes in heirloom Italian tomatoes so if you would like any seeds or have any questions I would be happy to help you.
saluti!
roberta

Roberta, I see you've been a member here since 2011 so you probably know that I make one large seed offer each year, so yes, I would be very interested in some heirloom varieties from Italy since I'm always looking for varieties that will be new to most folks, and can send you some varieties you don't have as thanks.

In the next few days I'll send you a PM about it.

Thanks again,

Carolyn

[antichevarieta]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Roberta, I see you've been a member here since 2011 so you probably know that I make one large seed offer each year, so yes, I would be very interested in some heirloom varieties from Italy since I'm always looking for varieties that will be new to most folks, and can send you some varieties you don't have as thanks.

In the next few days I'll send you a PM about it.

Thanks again,

Carolyn

great! i look forward to hearing from you and sharing....
by the way..here is my website ..sorry it's in italian..but thought you might want a quick look
www.antichevarieta.it

[NarnianGarden]

Molto belli, antichevarieta!

[Solanum315]

[QUOTE=doublehelix;324920][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]
I find it hard to believe seed vendors are selling unstable hybrids, and billing them as open pollinated.

I noticed that you are one of the first vendors to sell Nagcarlang. Not sure if you know this but Nagcarlang is almost certainly a landrace. If you look around, there is a wide variety of shapes, sizes and colors attributed to this variety. I asked a fruit vendor in the Philippines what kind of tomatoes he was selling and he told me "Nagcarlang". The first picture I attached is of his bin. Then in 2011 I ordered Nagcarlang from GRIN and what grew out is depicted in the second photo. There is a fellow from Buffalo that asserts that Nagcarlang looks more like a small red beefsteak and I recall you depicted it as a black tomato.
I am guessing that your source was either GRIN or someone who got it from GRIN. Quite honestly, I think that a lot of the varieties from there were landraces when they were acquired by USDA and either have stabilized somewhat in the decades they have been maintained in GRIN custody or on the contrary, have further hybridized (as I do not think they are as meticulous about segregation and bagging blossoms as we might want to imagine). Maybe you stabilized your strain and if you want to call it Nagcarlang, more power to you. There are different strains of Brandywine that are accepted by the most elitist tomato nerds so why shouldn't you be able to stabilize and sell your strain of a landrace?
I guess my point here is that variety is the spice of life and certainly a large part of the fun of tomato growing IMO. No one can honestly be sure that Brandywine is the same Brandywine grown in the 1930s. I would say that it is quite unlikely that it is. I think we should make a good faith effort to maintain varieties in some cognizable form (if possible), to let buyers know when a variety is less than F6 and give credit where it is due but to bag on backyard breeders is just silly.

[QUOTE=doublehelix;324920][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]
When the seeds from Tomatoville’s Dwarf project were stolen, there was an interesting quote.

How were they stolen? I kinda thought you were allowed to take seeds at Tomatopalooza. I only took German Queen and Mexico Midget the one year I went but it seemed to be an open practice. I respect people's hard work but are we really advocating the ownership of life forms here?

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by Solanum315

How were they stolen? I kinda thought you were allowed to take seeds at Tomatopalooza. I only took German Queen and Mexico Midget the one year I went but it seemed to be an open practice. I respect people's hard work but are we really advocating the ownership of life forms here?

This is part of the agreement that everyone agrees to to become part of the project

3. What is expected of participants.

* As a participant it is essential that you agree not to share any seeds from the tomatoes you grow for the project each season. There will be a separate thread for you to post in to make this commitment, and everyone who posts their agreement in it is very welcome to take part.

I don't remember the details, but someone stated passing seed around that wasn't part of the official release and only partially developed. Not as the seed being immature but being unstable and not theirs to release.

[carolyn137]

(There are different strains of Brandywine that are accepted by the most elitist tomato nerds so why shouldn't you be able to stabilize and sell your strain of a landrace?)

You've called me a nerd before and explained that it's a term of affection, but now I guess you've upped it to elitist nerd.

I'm not going to go into the two definitions of strain here since a search will bring up several threads, one being titled What is a Strain, as I recall.

Now to Nagcarlang, or however one wants to spell it. There's lots of info about it and the two Filipino ones here at TV and in one of the links below Steve, Double Helix, explains his research about it.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...light=filipino

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...light=filipino

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...ight=nagcarlan

The above in no particular order.

Carolyn

[Solanum315]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

This is part of the agreement that everyone agrees to to become part of the project
I don't remember the details, but someone stated passing seed around that wasn't part of the official release and only partially developed. Not as the seed being immature but being unstable and not theirs to release.

Ah, ok. That is reasonable to want to maintain some control over the project.