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Old November 24, 2020   #1
Brent M
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Default New Seedless Tomato Brent

Hi all. I'd like to introduce a fantastic new form of genetics. This is Brent, one of many cultivars that has the genetics: https://youtu.be/udlqBT1Yhbs

More coming. Brent
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Old November 24, 2020   #2
Fusion_power
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Parthenocarpic?
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Old November 28, 2020   #3
Brent M
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Parthenocarpic?
Yes, parthenocarpic, but unlike anything else. All of my lines are indeterminate, not the pat-2 determinate types.
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Old November 30, 2020   #4
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No interest in backing your project but I’m curious What is the meaning of the peculiar statement on the final slide regarding securing material off your property.

Good luck

KarenO

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Old November 30, 2020   #5
Brent M
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No interest in backing your project but I’m curious What is the meaning of the peculiar statement on the final slide regarding securing material off your property.

Good luck

KarenO
I don't want to give nearly 6 years of ground-beaking genetic work to thieves as this goes public. Part of that is deterrence.
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Old November 30, 2020   #6
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You could probably look at pledging them as open source through the OSSI system. This pledge is a legal commitment which prevents anyone from locking up breeding rights through plant variety rights or a patent.
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Old November 30, 2020   #7
Brent M
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You could probably look at pledging them as open source through the OSSI system. This pledge is a legal commitment which prevents anyone from locking up breeding rights through plant variety rights or a patent.
I'll surely consider it. Thanks. Right now, I want to partner with a specific entity to continue my work on a much bigger scale. In the forums now, I'm just getting the word out.
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Old December 9, 2020   #8
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There are dozens of parthenocarpic tomatoes currently available so that part is not really new. I've got 3 or 4 varieties that regularly set parthenocarpic fruit set even though they are not listed as such. For example, Hibor and Ukrainian Heart often set parthenocarpic fruit. That you have parthenocarpy combined with multiflora is a bit unusual. Also, the flower traits look a lot like S. Habrochaites so I suspect your parent line is derived from a wild species repeatedly crossed to a domestic tomato. I remember reading a few years ago that parthenocarpy often shows up in crosses to S. Pennelli and S. Habrochaites. Multiflora has only been found in crosses to one of the wild species. Older documentation refers to it as "centiflor". Foliage on your tomatoes looks a lot like Riesentraube though other traits are different.

Looking at breeding potential, definitely consider introgressing the ft gene. The advantage is that a plant with ft can set fruit at 40 degrees F. At this temperature, it is difficult to get pollen tubes to grow therefore having ft would allow your plants to set fruit at 40 degrees and grow the fruit to maturity regardless of pollination status. In other words, you could have seedless fruit just because the fruit set at a low enough temperature to prevent pollination. You can get ft from cultivar Earlinorth.

There is also quite a bit of potential to increase disease tolerance of your tomatoes. Consider crossing with a highly septoria tolerant line and/or with late blight tolerance from the ph2/ph3 genes. You can get ph2 from Matt's Wild Cherry but may have to go to a commercial line to get ph3. I have ph3 in a pea size wild tomato from TGRC (LA2533 IIRC).
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #9
Brent M
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There are dozens of parthenocarpic tomatoes currently available so that part is not really new. I've got 3 or 4 varieties that regularly set parthenocarpic fruit set even though they are not listed as such. For example, Hibor and Ukrainian Heart often set parthenocarpic fruit. That you have parthenocarpy combined with multiflora is a bit unusual. Also, the flower traits look a lot like S. Habrochaites so I suspect your parent line is derived from a wild species repeatedly crossed to a domestic tomato. I remember reading a few years ago that parthenocarpy often shows up in crosses to S. Pennelli and S. Habrochaites. Multiflora has only been found in crosses to one of the wild species. Older documentation refers to it as "centiflor". Foliage on your tomatoes looks a lot like Riesentraube though other traits are different.

Looking at breeding potential, definitely consider introgressing the ft gene. The advantage is that a plant with ft can set fruit at 40 degrees F. At this temperature, it is difficult to get pollen tubes to grow therefore having ft would allow your plants to set fruit at 40 degrees and grow the fruit to maturity regardless of pollination status. In other words, you could have seedless fruit just because the fruit set at a low enough temperature to prevent pollination. You can get ft from cultivar Earlinorth.

There is also quite a bit of potential to increase disease tolerance of your tomatoes. Consider crossing with a highly septoria tolerant line and/or with late blight tolerance from the ph2/ph3 genes. You can get ph2 from Matt's Wild Cherry but may have to go to a commercial line to get ph3. I have ph3 in a pea size wild tomato from TGRC (LA2533 IIRC).
I want to be clear in all this. I am no longer in doubt. When I refer to parthenocarpic, I refer to the plant consistently doing it. I am not referring to an occasional seedless or partially seedless fruit from time-to-time especially claims from paste type tomatoes. This normally occurs. A plant must be able to set fruit no matter what environment is thrown at it and no matter if pollen is viable or not--hot, cold, humid, arid, low light, in soil, in hydro, or in container. There are no cultivars capable of doing this. Only mine. I've researched them all trialing the most valid claims. Now, when I say "no matter what environment", I mean where the plant will grow.

There are several types of genes or mixes of genes that regulate parthenocarpy; they're not the same. Pat-2, OSU's lines, is just one type and they are the only lines out there, that are in production and they have issues breeding forward plus the pleotropic affects stated to me even by those involved with the development of their lines. I suspect Burpee's seedless is a ploidy cross and I'm fairly certain an OSU line was used as one of the parent lines along with a male-sterile parent according to patent paperwork I've seen. Some cultivars, when hit with certain environmental factors sometimes produce seedless fruits. This is normal for tomatoes. So, to agree with you a bit, parthenocarpy is not new, but what I have is the magic bullet that scientists are still trying to get. And, it is a new type of parthenocarpy. Just this October, there was an article on the possibility of "one day breeding parthenocarpy into tomatoes". If one wants to learn about the most promising lines of parthenocarpy, one only needs to look at what cultivars scientists--from many nations like Japan, Israel, Netherlands, Italy, USA, and Mutual Collaborations--have tried unsuccessfully to develop over decades. They've tried OSU work, wild-type crosses like you've mentioned and tons of crossing/backcrossing to develop them from wild types. Nothing has worked. Little bitty terrible looking prospects have emerged. They've all pretty much stopped and are looking at genetic manipulation from the papers I've read over the past few years. I'm not sure if you've seen all my lines yet, but I have tomatoes of every size and color. Huge, big beautiful, great-tasting tomatoes that will fill a slice of bread even. :O)

So, plants that produce seedless fruit once in a while is common. They are all dependent on pollen and/or the act of pollination to stimulate hormone production that can lead to parthenocarpy. Legend, for example, needs flower stimulation in my comparison grow and if the stigma is removed before anthesis, won't produce a tomato for me. Video coming out in 2 days. I've not been able to cut a bud in half on any lines before anthesis and create a seedless fruit in any other tomato other than all of my lines. The odd thing about the 3 OSU lines I've grown and compared to, zero had seedless fruit. Not one fruit over months. They were all seeded. To me, one seed in a fruit is a seeded fruit. It isn't seedless. The lines that began in our country from Severianin (pat-2 OSU work), scientists counted 5 seeds or less in a fruit as parthenocarpic fruits. They are not, but it's surely in a scientific paper. :O) Honestly, I've not even seen a picture of a seedless fruit of any kind, anywhere, except Burpee's Sweet Seedless. When one hunts the cultivars down and scrutinizes them, the truth begins to emerge. When one grows them and tests them, it becomes much more clear. Again, my comparison grow video is coming out soon. Worth a watch--Donovan vs Legend.

For the rest, the parthenocarpy I have is a mutant of two normal tomatoes from the species Lycopersicon lycopersicum formerly Lycopersicon esculentum. The flowers are normal as is all lines I've bred my mutant into. I've looked at them all extensively for years. I've compared the fruit, flowers, and leaves to the parental lines. I am certain. In my lines, tomato set is > 90% (rough guess) and only dependent on the plant's ability to grow. If my plants grow, they will produce a tomato nearly as certain as they will a leaf. This obviously surpasses the ft gene for which I'm unfamiliar with.

My total focus has been the development and proof of true parthenocarpic capability that can easily be transferred into any line just as easy and bringing a potato leaf into a line. I've crossed and carried forward 8+ lines from my mutant cherry of every size in just 5 years ranging from F2 to OP, 10g to 10 ounces, red, pink, yellow, and a dark, all indeterminate. I'm done now and am seeking a significant partner to prepare the process of extensive trials, genetic testing, and scientific papers. That's the point of my public release. I've had some folks say to me "prove what you're saying" or "I think you're misrepresenting your tomatoes". I am not. I am sure and I'm ready to put it to the test. I'm not selling any plant, seed, or variety/cultivar. I'm bringing forth new proven genetics for parthenocarpy. I'm sorry for such a long reply, but I must be clear for those who may read this. I hope I come across well. No drama intended.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #10
Fusion_power
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You come across ok, but missing the point. There are a ton of breeding possibilities including disease tolerance, cold hardiness, and stress tolerance. Your parthenocarpic tomatoes are interesting for a lot of reasons but they don't have the genetics to produce a truly successful tomato in the commercial market.



Keep in mind that watermelons were all seeded varieties until about 30 years ago. Now you can purchase seedless watermelons all day long in just about any grocery store. There is a similar situation with tomatoes meaning that most varieties today are seeded and nobody even worries about seedless. The big reason parthenocarpic tomatoes were released in the past was to overcome pollination issues in low temperatures. It really was not about seedless fruit, i.e. seedless was seen as a bonus, not the goal of the breeding work.


My other suggestion would be to get your tomatoes reviewed by a really good tomato breeder like Randy Gardner at NCSU. He is ethical to a T and would easily be able to tell you if there is value in your lines. I can put you in touch with him if you like.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #11
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I sent messages to a couple of breeders who commented that most of the time parthenocarpic tomatoes are dry and lack flavor. They would prefer a comparison of a normal seeded fruit with a seedless fruit from the same plant. How does the flavor compare? This is not a question of whether or not the seedless fruit tastes good. It is whether or not the seedless fruit tastes essentially the same as a seeded fruit.


Another concern is that physical damage is required to produce seedless fruit. This suggests that your tomatoes would be most useful in a greenhouse setting where fruit production is fully controlled. In other words, if grown in a garden, they would produce normal seeded fruit. This in turn brings up major questions about disease susceptibility. Commercial greenhouse tomatoes MUST have resistance to several soil borne diseases or they have to be grafted onto disease tolerant rootstock.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #12
Brent M
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You come across ok, but missing the point. There are a ton of breeding possibilities including disease tolerance, cold hardiness, and stress tolerance. Your parthenocarpic tomatoes are interesting for a lot of reasons but they don't have the genetics to produce a truly successful tomato in the commercial market.



Keep in mind that watermelons were all seeded varieties until about 30 years ago. Now you can purchase seedless watermelons all day long in just about any grocery store. There is a similar situation with tomatoes meaning that most varieties today are seeded and nobody even worries about seedless. The big reason parthenocarpic tomatoes were released in the past was to overcome pollination issues in low temperatures. It really was not about seedless fruit, i.e. seedless was seen as a bonus, not the goal of the breeding work.


My other suggestion would be to get your tomatoes reviewed by a really good tomato breeder like Randy Gardner at NCSU. He is ethical to a T and would easily be able to tell you if there is value in your lines. I can put you in touch with him if you like.
This appears to be counter-productive. My lines are representative of normal tomatoes including large tasty ones. Have you seen the video on Donovan? I'm not sure where you're getting your information about my lines. As far as I know, I'm the expert on them, but you're not asking questions. I can also tell you haven't watched all of my videos which would help a lot. It shows how the genetics can be bred into any tomato line. So, I don't want to get into a debate, but I will invite you to my newly formed Facebook Group: The Arkansas Seedless Tomato Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/181836480314576/

Answering questions is part of the deal there. Just so you know, I crossed Donovan F4 with Rebelski F1. I hope you're aware of Rebelski F1. My parthenocarpic line from this cross is Dorothy. So, please come on over, but get up to speed. You can tell me how you believe my lines are somehow lacking, but you gotta promise to watch all the videos and read up on lots of the latest scientific articles I alluded to in the other post. ere's a link on a fairly recent article on parthenocarpy as well: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...018.01997/full. It talks about limitations in the past. Mine have none of them.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #13
Brent M
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I sent messages to a couple of breeders who commented that most of the time parthenocarpic tomatoes are dry and lack flavor. They would prefer a comparison of a normal seeded fruit with a seedless fruit from the same plant. How does the flavor compare? This is not a question of whether or not the seedless fruit tastes good. It is whether or not the seedless fruit tastes essentially the same as a seeded fruit.


Another concern is that physical damage is required to produce seedless fruit. This suggests that your tomatoes would be most useful in a greenhouse setting where fruit production is fully controlled. In other words, if grown in a garden, they would produce normal seeded fruit. This in turn brings up major questions about disease susceptibility. Commercial greenhouse tomatoes MUST have resistance to several soil borne diseases or they have to be grafted onto disease tolerant rootstock.
On my plants, you can't tell the difference. Thanks for the question. Seeded or not, same plant, same everything. Same gel, same locule development, same taste, same size, same everything. My work stems from a new mutant. It is not related to pleotropic affects from previous parthenocarpy. You can see the fruit in the videos and you can hear me talk about it too. The videos are my proof and they grow in lots of environments regardless of pollination or fertilization. You can even make your own seedless fruit by cutting the bud in half before anthesis. Didn't I say that before? I've already spoke on the value of "ideal" parthenocarpy that nations are seeking. Don't want to go over that again, but it's significant and mine appears to be pretty ideal. The type of parthenocarpy they want in those papers, I have. Just got to partner and get the backed research and papers out.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #14
Fred Hempel
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Brent, have you done complementation tests to show that your mutation is different than others reported?

Also, is it dominant or recessive?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #15
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There is a relatively recently described mutation, Pat-k, which sounds similar to the lines you have.

I think your potential partners would want to know the result of a complementation test with Pat-k (and probably Pat-2 as well).

Unfortunately, it does not look like Pat-k has been submitted to the Tomato Genetics Resources Center at UC Davis.

You might be able to exchange material with the group that has been using Pat-k to investigate parthenocarpy, but I would imagine they would want a reciprocal exchange of material.

Without knowing whether you are working with a similar, previously described, mutation there is no way to assess whether you have any chance of "protecting" your work. However, it is typically very hard to keep others from using mutations and once you distribute your lines, others will likely use them if they are useful.

One thing that can be protected (simply through a trade secret) is a hybrid. You may want to consider protecting your work simply by constructing hybrids that might perform well enough in trials to be adopted by a target market.
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