Ratios for ruffles???

[bower]

Been going through all my projects and deciding what to grow and how many I need for one or another. I have two candidate lines, where the issue is to select away from unfortunate shape defects. Both are 'ruffled' fruit so involving the fas gene and ??? something else no doubt.

I'm just wondering if anyone has grown out a line with similar issues, and a ballpark ratio for finding more evenly shaped but still ruffled fruit?

[bower]

For your amusement, some pics.

This one is from my Rodney F2: larger than the determinate line I grew out last year, smooth texture, sweet, great taste, but the shapes were gnarly. A very flat beef, very irregular ruffles. Indeterminate.
The parentage is:
Black Nipper F2 (Napoli Fiaschetto X Black Cherry) det X ZoSBe F1 (Zolotoe Serdtse X Black Early)
And the Rodney F1 was actually a pointy small heart shape.
As I understand it, some 'pointy' genes can prevent beef mis-shapes, even if not expressed as a pointy end. But this beef was so flat, there may be no 'pointy' here at all.

[GrowingCoastal]

They look darkly delicious!

[bower]

Another one: "KPEPI pink" F1 grown last summer. Irregular ruffles, where they occur.

Parentage is Kitten Paws Pink F2 (Stupice X Black Cherry) gf/- X (Eva Purple Ball X PI120256 F1)
I only had 5 seeds from this cross and grew them all. They were all very vigorous, sweet and tasty, saved seed from this pink and the best tasting red one, which was also irregularly ruffled.
The ruffles in this line come from PI120256 which is a cold tolerant flat ruffled fruit originally from Turkey. They were rather late for us although fast to ripen once they set, tasty but did have quite a few oddball shapes as well. The other parents are nicely shaped but smaller, and none of them have 'pointy' genetics afaik.

[bower]

Originally Posted by GrowingCoastal

They look darkly delicious!

Yes they really were! And very early - about ten days earlier than the determinate line. That is unusual for really tasty fruit...
I would like to squeeze a few of these into my grow plan this year, along with the other early blacks, but then comes the question, how many would I really need to find a perfect shape?

[KarenO]

I’m not sure it is predictable with the unstable parentage Bower, what little bit I know about genetic combination odds assumes two stable parents.
It looks beautiful and I am guessing if you grew 50 you will still see a lot of variability not just of shape in the F3. As always and I know you know, the more plants you grow the more likely you are to find what you are looking for.
The trouble if looking for shape is to keep all those other great features.
That black looks fantastic, any chance of giving it all your space this year to find the best F3’s? It’s hard I know, it’s why a have a bunch of other things in hold pending finishing the hearts and the KARMAs just never enough room to give them all justice.

KarenO

[bower]

Thanks KarenO. Too true the more the merrier. Realistically though, I won't have room for more than a few of them this year. I'm already committed to grow some of the other blacks forward.. but then there is the possibility of crossing this line with an F4 sibling with a better shape.
I'm not too worried about recovering the taste traits, because with very few exceptions the taste in all these sibling lines is well above average across the board. The Skippers both brown and purple are my personal faves but they have a different texture all their own, while the Rodneys are dense but smooth.
I would have to start a half dozen seedlings minimum though, to be sure to recover the earliness.
Am also thinking about a "chop to crop" strategy just to get a few clusters from more plants.
I am pretty much resigned to not growing tomatoes in the yard this year at all, because of the attraction to rats. And it's pointless to overfill the greenhouse.

Speaking of beautiful ruffles, wow Zena's Gift. They were so gorgeous, very regular shapes for such a large fruit. And as deep as pantaloons! I know it's not impossible to have nicely shaped beefs. But they do seem to be more rare than common.

[Nan_PA_6b]

Bower, I know how it is to try to grow as many as possible. I'm doing something this summer to grow more F2's.

Theory: you don't need plants from this growout to produce over a long season. Really, all you need is to see the shape of the fruit, then taste the ones that look good. You can see the fruit shape well before they're ripe. This means you can rip out all misshapen-fruited plants somewhat early on. If you have seedlings ready to replace those, you can get a second set of plants that will ripen a few fruit before frost. I have the following schedule set up for mine:

March 31– 1st seeding.......36 plants
May 15- 1st planting.........36 plants
May 15- 2nd seeding.........27 plants
July 1- 1st shape eval........keep approx. 9 plants
July 1- 2nd planting...........approx. 27 plants
Aug 1-1st ripe...................9 plants kept from 1st set: taste test
Aug 15- 2nd shape eval......keep approx. 6 plants from 2nd set. Or keep all, for later taste eval
Sep 15- 2nd ripe...............plants from 2nd set taste test

Total approx 15 keepers
Total 63 evaluated

I don't know how many keepers you'll get from each batch; I calculated the odds for my situation. But you get the idea: plant batch #1 and then plant batch #2 six weeks later. This increases your odds of finding what you want in limited space.

Nan

[bower]

That's a good idea Nan.
I wonder what is a minimum size container just to get one or two clusters of fruit.
I have grown out some in sandpails for a fruit or two, but the limiting factor here is light vs space. If I could keep them small not leggy it would be too easy.
I really can't use outdoors this year. The rat situation is a no-go, there are obviously a lot of them in the area. I don't want any fruit out to encourage them near my house.

[Nan_PA_6b]

You can prune 'em. I'll probably have to, because I'm squeezing them in.

Nan