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Old May 6, 2008   #1
Gobig_or_Gohome_toms
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Default Which two to cross and who should the mom be?

I am in my 4th year of growing tomatoes now and have wondered about maybe trying to do a cross. I do not currently have allot of garden space so beyong the F1 generation it might take me some time to experiment with the F2 but I may have more land by then.

My question is not knowing much about the genetics involved of the varieties I am growing what do you think would make for an interesting Cross? Currently I only grow for slicing and eating fresh or on sandwhiches.

Spudakee (PL version of Cherokee Purple)
KBX
Ed's Millenium
Mexico
Cherokee Green
Indian Stripe (If they make it)
Brandyboy F1
Heatwave II F1

What are you thoughts on what would make for a nice slicing and good tasting tomto in the F1 and also what I might expect in the F2 and F3 generations.

Thanks!
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Old May 7, 2008   #2
dice
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Ed's Millenium x Heatwave II (the first one listed is the
female parent). Ed's is supposed to be one of the more
productive Brandywine selections, and the idea would be
to add size and flavor to what I am guessing is Heatwave II's
hybrid vigor and good hot weather performance (probably
has a number of disease tolerances, too, that are pretty
much a given in modern hybrids.)

The F1 will probably be bland, more like Heatwave II than
Ed's. The F2 and F3 generations are where you might find
some prizes.

The thing is, you have 6 great heirlooms in that list,
one pretty good F1 (Brandy Boy), and the more-or-less
generic, commercial Heatwave II. None of the other crosses
really make sense to me (not much of an improvement
possible over what the parent strains offer).

Maybe Ed's Millenium x Brandy Boy (reinforce the Brandywine
genes in Brandy Boy without giving up much production).
I don't know if making Brandy Boy later is really an
improvement, though. That one might have better flavor
in the F1 than the Ed's x Heatwave cross.
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Old May 7, 2008   #3
Tom Wagner
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To Gobig,
Quote:
Which two to cross and who should the mom be?


Which two to cross? That is a question that prompts a subjective and objective answer. I don't have either.

Who should the mom be? Again, I don't know. If you have a favorite, use it as a female parent if you make only one cross, male if you want to make numerous crosses. It is a lot easier to take a jigger of pollen from that fave and pollinate every variety you can.

I try to use as the female the one that has the most obvious recessives in order make determining the efficacy of the hybrid a no-brainer.

Contingency is the operative word when making hybrids. When I cross I also purposely self the flower from which I get the pollen. I then cross to all the candidates in mind. If in this case using Spudakee, for example, I place high importance for creating hybrids of it. Below is the scenario:




Spudakee X Spudakee
KBX X Spudakee
Ed's Millenium X Spudakee
Mexico X Spudakee
Cherokee Green X Spudakee
Indian Stripe X Spudakee
Brandyboy F1 X Spudakee
Heatwave II F1 x Spudakee

But if KBX is my fave, the scenario is like this:

Spudakee X KBX
KBX X KBX
Ed's Millenium X KBX
Mexico X KBX
Cherokee Green X KBX
Indian Stripe X KBX
Brandyboy F1 X KBX
Heatwave II F1 X KBX

Or is Ed's Millenium the guy?


Spudakee X Ed's Millenium
KBX X Ed's Millenium
Ed's Millenium X Ed's Millenium
Mexico X Ed's Millenium
Cherokee Green X Ed's Millenium
Indian Stripe X Ed's Millenium
Brandyboy F1 X Ed's Millenium
Heatwave II F1 X Ed's Millenium

Or is it Mexico?

Spudakee X Mexico
KBX X Mexico
Ed's Millenium X Mexico
Mexico X Mexico
Cherokee Green X Mexico
Indian Stripe X Mexico
Brandyboy F1 X Mexico
Heatwave II F1 X Mexico

The pattern emerges, I can make 8 selfs and 56 reciprocal crosses. Now if I plant those 8 selfed lines and all 56 crosses next year and want to cross them again, I will get 8 selfs, 56 F-2 families, and 4,032 reciprocal F-1's

I could simplify it and bulk the pollen from each of your eight varieties and cross this pollen to each of the 8 parents. I would get all of the crosses and the OP's too, all 64 types. You wouldn't know which was which unless you knew something of the genetics involved. One could make it interesting by either saving each cross separate and/or bulking each of those eight crosses. If (MOM) is important to you, sow the seed from that fruit as a family, as you have every cross possible of that female parent. A neat thing about bulking is that you grow many of these hybrids by elimination of the selfing pollen but it would mean mixing 8 different vials of pollen of seven pollen parents each time omitting a pollen line that will be used on that same plant. Growing enough of those 56 possible reciprocals the next year and bulking the pollen again for crossing to each plant, the diversity is increased exponentially.

Quote:
Female parent X Bulk pollen (Spudakee, KBX, Ed's Millenium,Mexico, Cherokee Green, Indian Stripe,Brandyboy F1, Heatwave II F1)

Breeding is a numbers game; it can be done as small as you want, or as large as you can manage. Controlled crosses are very satisfying since many of us want certainty of pedigree info. But if quantitatively searching for diversity, the bulking of known pollen parents is desirable on many levels.

Using a Punnett Square garden design of eight varieties aids in defining certainty of all crosses being performed. Eight varieties, eight plants of each, each one crossed only once. That way you don't have to think which cross or reciprocal was done or not done. Draw a table of 8 by 8 and eliminate the diagonal line going from the uppper left hand side to the lower right hand side (indicating selfs). Then go cross!

Tom Wagner



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Old May 7, 2008   #4
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The one I personally would really like to see is a cross between Neves Azorean Red and Ed's Millennium. I just sent "Tomstrees" some Ed's Millennium seeds, and as he did with a cross of NAR and Brandywine, I am pleading with him to do the same with NAR and Ed's.

I know he lives in New Jersey, and I could send my cousin "Vito" over to give him some "encouragement" , but hopefully, he will take up the challenge.

If anyone else needs Ed's Millennium seeds to experiment with crosses, please let me know.

Ray
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Old May 7, 2008   #5
carolyn137
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The one I personally would really like to see is a cross between Neves Azorean Red and Ed's Millennium. I just sent "Tomstrees" some Ed's Millennium seeds, and as he did with a cross of NAR and Brandywine, I am pleading with him to do the same with NAR and Ed's.


****

Ray, that was Bill, aka Papa Vic, who did the cross between NAR and Brandywine, not Tom.

Bill sent me some F1 seeds and this summer I should be seeing it for the first time. I know some folks are planting out F2 seeds this year, but I'm used to being a year behind on some things.....like gas prices.
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Old May 8, 2008   #6
Gobig_or_Gohome_toms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnewste View Post
The one I personally would really like to see is a cross between Neves Azorean Red and Ed's Millennium. I just sent "Tomstrees" some Ed's Millennium seeds, and as he did with a cross of NAR and Brandywine, I am pleading with him to do the same with NAR and Ed's.

I know he lives in New Jersey, and I could send my cousin "Vito" over to give him some "encouragement" , but hopefully, he will take up the challenge.

If anyone else needs Ed's Millennium seeds to experiment with crosses, please let me know.

Ray
Ray I got my Ed's Millennium seeds from you (Thanks!!) and they are looking very healthy and I am looking at pushing the envelop with my tomatoes and putting them out in their containers on Monday but will keep back-ups in case they do poorly.

I had planed on growing NAR as well but none of the 6 I planted germinated (got crushed in the mail I think) so unless my local garden center has them I will be out of luck. They did have lots of heirlooms last year I just do not remember which ones they had.
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Old May 10, 2008   #7
dice
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One think I was forgetting: since Heatwave II and Brandy Boy
are both F1s already (lots of heterozygous dominant-recessive
gene pairs), crossing either with Ed's Millenium (or anything
else on your list) will not yield F1 plants that are all alike,
like you would get crossing two OP cultivars.

Some will doubtless be better than others in the F1
generation.
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