F-1 Black Plum X Green Zebra

[Tom Wagner]

DSCN1243.jpg

This is but one photo I have taken of my many F-1 hybrids that I am trying out this year.

The smokey coloring of Black Plum is not quite evident in the picture, but in reality they are smokey and not the red color it seems here. The green flesh is recessive as you can tell. The shape is somewhat between the two parents. Very little show of striping. Great production! Interesting flavors.

My crop is running late this year.

I am saving the F-2 seed to get recombinants for the next go around.

[Rena]

I love black plum If you need a tester let me know

[Tom Wagner]

This hybrid has passed the test for me as a potential heirloom hybrid to promote. I have a number of projects in the future that hopefully will take a hybrid like this to the market.

The recombination of traits in the F-2 and later generations will allow me to select a dozen or so prototypes for the future.

[Patrina_Pepperina]

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

This hybrid has passed the test for me as a potential heirloom hybrid to promote. I have a number of projects in the future that hopefully will take a hybrid like this to the market.

The recombination of traits in the F-2 and later generations will allow me to select a dozen or so prototypes for the future.

"heirloom hybrid" is terminology that's hard to get my head around Tom Who would produce the F1 seed for the market and how many seeds would be needed (out of curiosity)?

Patrina

[Tom Wagner]

Hybrid Heirloom Tomato

Quite oxymoronic, isn't it?

People want hybrid tomatoes because they;

1. Think they yield better
2. Think they have more disease resistance
3. Think since the seed is more expensive..better value
4. Are used to growing hybrids
5. Think heirloom don't keep as well
6 Think tomatoes should be red, period!
7. (your comments here)



People want heirloom tomatoes because they:

1. Think they taste better
2. Think they are sustainable sources of diversity
3. Think they are artfully snobbish ( I mean thoughtful)
4. Think they are less likely to be GMO monsters
5. Can save the seed
6 Are more colorful
7. (your comments here)


Why would anyone want Hybrid Heirloom tomatoes?

1. They yield better
2. They have more disease resistance
3. The seed is more expensive..better value
4. Used to growing hybrids
5. Heirloom don't keep as well, usually
6 Tomatoes should be red,yellow, pink, green, black, orange bicolored, you name it!
7. They taste better
8. They are sustainable sources of diversity
9. They are artfully thoughtful
10 They are no more likely to be GMO monsters
11 Can save the seed, and have real diversity
12 Are more colorful than regular old fashioned F-1's
13 (your comments here)

"heirloom hybrid" is terminology that's hard to get my head around Tom :wink: Who would produce the F1 seed for the market and how many seeds would be needed (out of curiosity)? Patrina

I brought up the notion of "Hybrid Heirlooms" at the Seed Saver Exchange Convention last July, and was pleasingly surprised at the acceptance of such heretic notions.

I asked, "Would you grow a Hybrid Brandywine that had firmer fruit, less catfacing, earlier maturity, more fruit, more consistent flavor, more disease resistant, chilling resitance, more good stuff?"

I saw nods of yesirees.

Did I mention that I could produce the seed? At least to start with. I could even disclose each parental line so that hybrids would no longer have to be state secrets. That each grower could produce his own hybrid seed just by accessing the parental strains.

Or,,,I could be the evil breeder who maintains complete confidentially of each parent and releases to no one.

You don't need a lot of hybrid seed. They is no money to be made with OP seed, to tell you the true fact. If one could get 10 cents per seed, you could return the investment in the tomato work.

I sure hope this has stoked some fires in the CrossTalk forum. It has been too quiet of late.

Tom Wagner

[Patrina_Pepperina]

So, the idea of an heirloom hybrid is the crossing of 2 heirlooms basically? I guess that's what most accidental crosses are among heirloom enthusiasts anyhow, the only difference being that one parent is unkown in accidental crosses

Patrina

[Tom Wagner]

So, the idea of an heirloom hybrid is the crossing of 2 heirlooms basically? I guess that's what most accidental crosses are among heirloom enthusiasts anyhow, the only difference being that one parent is unkown in accidental crosses

Patrina

The definition of an Heirloom Hybrid tomato? Is it simply as you imply; an heirloom hybrid is the crossing of 2 heirlooms basically?

I am somewhat guilty of being a Word Epidemiologist,
but, yes, somewhat. A Hybrid Heirloom tomato could be just simply the cross of 2 heirlooms.

It could be the cross between 2 remade heirlooms, having introgressed parts not detracting from the original goodness.

It could be a cross of a Brandywine (sudduth strain) and the same with added and/or subtracted genes.

It could be just lookalikes, tastes alike, variations of a recognizable variety (varieties) upon crossing makes a viable hybrid that looks like a familiar open pollinated heirloom.

I googled the terms hybrid heirloom, so I put together a unique list of links to the phrase:

• My sun sugar hybrid heirloom was arguably my favorite (AVIS WEATHERSBEE) Funny how sun sugars and sun golds fall neatly into this class

• Most vegetables are propagated from seed. For these, it is hard to imagine there being any hybrid heirloom or heritage varieties. (Raymondo) Thanks, Raymondo, for the reminder that it is hard to imagine hybrid heirlooms

• Dr. Gardner is developing hybrid “heirloom-type” tomato varieties with improved disease resistance and more consistent fruit quality. We talked, Randy and I, about this issue. He thought I was on to something, but he didn't say what something!!!!

• Heirloom tomatoes enjoy a popularity based on their unique fruit colors and exceptional flavor. (http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/specialty_c...s_spring06.htm) 3. AND 4. Why can't Hybrid Heirloom tomatoes be based on unique fruit colors and fine flavors?

• Heirloom tomato plants… the practice of seed-saving, which ensures the continuation of older, non-hybrid ''heirloom'' plants, has become trendy in recent years.I believe that trendy Hybrid Heirlooms of tomatoes could insure that we keep alive that which makes our hybrids in the first place
  

• Non hybrid (heirloom) seeds Such a trendy moniker, it is almost begging me to upset the phraseology with Hybrid (Heirloom) Seeds.

• I bought all non hybrid heirloom varieties for my garden plants this year just for that reason of saving seed. (Cinnamonhuskies) This Michigan gal wants to save seeds, hey, you can save seed from Hybrid Heirloom tomatoes and create your own variety from the recombination. !!!!!

• Bob Riedmuller and Laurie Scullin discuss the new hybrid heirloom tomato, Old Time Tasty. (Author: VIVA Garden) What sets off this special tomato is the combination of the heirloom base coupled with modern disease resistance. Bred from a ‘Tomande’ type tomato. See, it has been done, thanks Home Depot!

• A huge interest in helping reverse the trend to the un-tasty tomato – a selection of a new heirloom type tomato – a hybrid with an exceptional taste. So here we go, let's reverse the trend with a non un-tasty tomato to make a non (Open pollinated) tomato with a non(store bought) taste.

I guess that's what most accidental crosses are among heirloom enthusiasts anyhow, the only difference being that one parent is unkown in accidental crosses

I am talking about repeatable (Got to have) hybrids that make for a classy Hybrid Heirloom tomato. Accidental hybrids by enthusiasts with one parent unknown is not a viable way of producing F-1 hybrids. By the time the enthusiast knows it is indeed a hybrid, he or she, is on the way to self out the differences. I suppose if one re-creates the suspected parents, and the result is a dead ringer for the original accident, go ahead and make that cross over and over again.

"Heirloom base coupled with modern disease resistance"

Summarization: A Hybrid Heirloom Tomato---Produces like a hybrid, but tastes and looks like an heirloom (Tom Wagner)

[dice]

"Hybrid Heirloom tomato"

YMMV

[Tom Wagner]

I am a bit surprised that my arguments, as stated rather copiously in the previous messages, have garnished so few comments. I don't know if there is any agreement or even mild to hostile opposition to my positions, point by point, or in general terms a non-issue.

Hybrid Heirloom Tomatoes

Is this viable?

Tom Wagner

[johno]

I have a problem with that terminology, for what it's worth. Hybrid is not OP/ Heirloom is OP. It's a contradiction of terms.

However, I do see a need for some kind of wording to express 'special' hybrids. Take Purple Haze for example: From what I hear, it has such amazing flavor that it deserves distinction other than simply 'hybrid.' It was certainly developed from great-tasting heirlooms, but the fact remains, it isn't OP. OP is really the only common denominator of heirlooms - and then there's that discussion (what is an heirloom?..) which complicates the matter further.

I was thinking of starting a mail-order seed company, "Heirlooms of Tomorrow," which would sell only new stabilized (OP) tomato varieties (which, in my opinion, aren't really heirlooms yet.) Perhaps 'Heirlooms of Tomorrow' would be more appropriate to describe 'hybrid heirlooms?' [Unfortunately, someone already has that business name, but it isn't applied to vegetables...]

Not trying to offer hostile opposition, just conversation...

[dice]

"Hybrid Heirloom Tomatoes"

Some people are going to see that and not get it.
They'll think, "Oh cool, someone was talking
about these at work (heirloom tomatoes)," and
maybe order some, without the faintest idea
of how what are they getting differs from either
standard retail seed market commercial hybrids
or OP heirlooms. The cultivar description and
price will be the only parts that sink in.

Other people will suspect a missing '&' character
there between hybrid and heirloom and expect
to see listings for both hybrid and OP heirloom
seeds.

Long time tomato growers and seed customers
will probably figure at first glance that the
possibilities are a tossup between a marketing
oxymoron and "Hybrids of Heirloom Tomatoes"
(while wondering about the small possibility
that some seed company has bequeathed you
it's stock of hybrid seed). They may even wonder
if this is a site with a historical theme, bringing
together seeds of great hybrids of the last 60 years
all in one place (and maybe some that have been
discontinued by the companies that brought
them to market originally).

Seems like it would be kind of a niche market
for the amateur grower, attracting people who
like to experiment and are always willing to try
a new variety and see how it does. The amateur
growers who insist on OP seed will mostly ignore
it. They might browse it and try one or two, just
for curiousity sake, but growing hybrids is something
that they are specifically trying to avoid as a
matter of policy.

On the other hand, the same amateur growers
that always grow a few hybrids anyway, just
for their reliability, will probably try "hybrid
heirlooms" to see if they are comparably
reliable and taste better than what they normally
use for that purpose.

For commercial growers, the bottom line is everything.
They'll trial it. If it grows well, tends to survive
to maturity, produces well, and customers like it,
they'll buy seeds by the pound and grow it for
market. The "customer" in this case is likely
to be primarily the produce wholesaler and/or
food manufacturer, which means how well it
keeps in transport and storage is a bigger issue
than flavor. Fresh markets and restaurants
may have different parameters, and there is
a market there for better tasting tomatoes even
with less robust storage characteristics, but those
are likely smaller markets than grocery stores
and tomato product manufacturers.

(Do Campbell's and Heinz still develop their own
cultivars? Or subcontract that sort of development?
Just wondering.)

[Tania]

Tom,

I am still catching up with T-ville posts as I havent been checking it for a long time. So I just came across your post.

Personally, I do not like the term Hybrid Heirloom Tomatoes.

This just doesn't sound right to me, as 'hybrid' and 'heirloom' are contradictory terms, in my opinion.

I love trialing new hybrids that were created from heirloom tomatoes, but the first thing that comes to my mind is a thought about 'stabilizing' the hybrid variety I liked, especially when the hybrid was a cross of just two heirloom parents,as I believe in seeds saving and passing them on from one generation to another and share seeds with other gardeners. That's what my and my husband's families did, and I am proud to carry on this family tradition. .

So please take into consideration my personal values when reading my response .

[dice]

In the weeks since my previous post in this
thread, "hybrid heirloom" has actually turned
up in a seed vendor listing:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=7008