Containers: some info

[Ed of Somis]

I posted this in "general discussion"....but I thought it should be put here as well....
J...growing in containers has some challenges that is much different than in-ground growing. There is a "container" forum on the garden web that is really good. Several of those people are really experts on this! Be careful on whose advice you follow. I think all mean well...Container size is important. I know people can grow in 5 gal containers. Generally, the bigger the better. My 15 gal nursery pots work well for tomatoes. I am going a bit bigger next year. Many commercial slow-draining potting soils/mixes are a real problem. Have you ever noticed the bottom 3-4 inches of muck in your pots when you dump them? Without spending an hour going into the science of why this is...let me simplify. Water continues downward because of two forces: gravity and cohesion. At the bottom of the pot you lose the cohesion factor. This is why drain holes alone are not enough. A wick (simply put) "fakes the medium out"...and allows the water to be "pulled out"...even on the bottom of the pot. Never use a container that has no drainage. Aeration in soil is a must! Without it...plants die from lack of water/nutrients. Yes, it is true. Plants suffocate, and can no longer pull these nutrients/water in. Finally, container growing (not self-watering) need constant attention. Daily watering during summer (until run-out) and constant low-dose feeding is necessary. I apologize for the long thread....but if I can help others avoid trouble...that is a good thing. Ed

[NarnianGarden]

Thanks Ed. I did read that and thought, how complicated.. But thankfully, all of my plants are still alive despite of all the mistakes, heat waves, cold, too much / too little water and haphazard fertilizer. It's amazing how resilient plants can be...
Some of my container plants (Black Krim) are over 2 meters tall... not bad for outdoors in this climate! Pushing fruit and hopefully bringing them to maturity as well.

It turned out I got more nurselings than containers, so when all pots and buckets were taken, empty cardboard boxes were filled with a plastic bag and soil. Plants in them are thriving, even though they don't have enough room for roots... Something the nature is doing right, even if we humans aren't...

[edweather]

Ed, Everything you said is correct. A good, decent draining mix, and steady feeding with a low dose of food, and steady watering is the key.....just to echo what you said. I also up the food a little during the peak growing phase of the plant. Hopefully alot of people will read this.

[Dewayne mater]

Several of the threads regarding Rabyo's earthtainer, including those where he shares the plans for building them and getting them up and running have very worthy discussion threads. If your containers have mucky, soaked soil in them, you especially want to read the threads regarding his 3,2,1 soiless mixes. If you want to be a believer, start here: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...highlight=june

[tlintx]

The more I read about container growing (and see Raybo's results), the more I think sub-irrigated is just the optimal way to go, especially in a sub-optimal climate!

As a casual test, I set up two pots earlier this summer, virtually identical, except that one is a SIP and the other isn't. The difference is shocking. Even with a rogue squirrel attack on the SIP, it's outperforming the top watered pot by a mile. If I were more consistent with my top watering I might get different results, but for simplicity -- just fill the reservoir -- it's amazing.

[ScottinAtlanta]

Do you need daily watering in a larger container if you mulch it heavily? I can't really commit to daily watering.

[tlintx]

I did commit to daily watering... until I realized I was literally drowning my plants.

I used to read Gardenweb's container forums, and I won't knock them, but it seemed to me that a lot of folks there are devoted to the idea of giving the plant optimum conditions for growing, not the grower. And it's been my experience, in my climate, that perennials are very happy in a fast draining mix (but watered never except rain) but vegetables require more water retention and more nutrition.

[Ed of Somis]

It is a joy to watch people learn and keep an open mind as to different ideas. Several of the above comments are right on the money. The beauty of forums like these is: you do not have to learn the hard way. You can learn from others. Certainly there is a huge difference in weather from Texas to the Oregon coast. What details work for me with 80 degree summer days...may not work for someone living in Dallas. As for the question posed about watering daily in a large container??? The answer is maybe....sorry, but it is one of those things that says variables like weather, size of plant, size of container, all make a difference. If you remember this always...I think it helps: The heart of the plant is in the roots! Always be aware of roots! Where they are, how moist they are, what they need, etc.

[cythaenopsis]

Seems like there's a strong consensus on the recommended Earthtainer sizes for growing most any tomato. I have seen several videos where people are using 5 gallon containers and having a satisfactory production of fruit. But that level of satisfaction seems to depend upon the person's perspective.

In my case, I'm growing my plants in 6 gallon containers (SWC design). I make sure they have ample water in the reservoir and I periodically apply fertilized water. Because the soil/potting-mix also has nutrients in it, I sometimes water from above if there hasn't been rain for at least 7 days, as I believe water movement through the soil is paramount to helping the root system extract nutrients from it.

Of the two varieties I'm growing, the Lemon Boy (hybrid) is doing quite well in the container and providing a good run of fruit production. My Black Krim plant is generally healthy and getting tall (about 4.5') but is poor on production. There may be some other contributing factors involved (my soil choice and the weather), but generally speaking I feel convinced at this point that it is best to have a 10 gallon or larger container for heirloom tomatoes. You can grow them in 5 gallon ones, but success will be very touch-and-go. Professional growers have special techniques to utilize such small containers for growing, but those techniques tend to be too involved for the small time gardener.

Anyway, that's what I've learned thus far in my first season of tomato growing. I've got a long way to go and being here on Tomatoville has been terrific--I also find that I keep learning more and more as I participate here.

[cythaenopsis]

Also, I want to add to what you said Ed about the health of roots being key. I absolutely agree. And I think this may be part of the problem I've had with my Black Krim. The SWC pots I chose have a limited design for root access to the reservoir. They have a few small holes in the floor and then a slit through each of the 4 legs. I've observed that a number of roots have pushed their way through those slits. The plant is definitely making use of the reservoir, but is stunted by the limited access. I've come up with a modification (see my blog entry HERE) that will provide greater root access and hopefully boost the production capability of the plant.

[stromato]

Originally Posted by cythaenopsis

Also, I want to add to what you said Ed about the health of roots being key. I absolutely agree. And I think this may be part of the problem I've had with my Black Krim. The SWC pots I chose have a limited design for root access to the reservoir. They have a few small holes in the floor and then a slit through each of the 4 legs. I've observed that a number of roots have pushed their way through those slits. The plant is definitely making use of the reservoir, but is stunted by the limited access. I've come up with a modification (see my blog entry HERE) that will provide greater root access and hopefully boost the production capability of the plant.

cythaenopsis,

Just wanted to let you know (maybe you already know) that, if I recall correctly, Raybo found that when roots make it into the reservoir flavor is negatively affected. So it is not necessarily a good thing for roots to reach the reservoir.

Hydroponics experts still debate this, however, as you may find in threads about the development of Texas Tomato Food, for example.

[cythaenopsis]

^ Thanks for the info, stromato. I wasn't aware that Raybo explicitly discourages letting the tomato plant roots getting into the reservoir. I do wonder if there's a matter of balance... maybe if only a smaller subset of roots get into the reservoir, there will be some under watering protection without causing watery tasting tomatoes.

In any case, I did read up a little more and it does sound like some kind of fine screening or high quality landscape cloth is a good idea for a barrier. The default design of my store bought SWC's doesn't provide much wick action through the soil, which inspired my modification... but I'll have to see how it pans out. If roots start making their way into the reservoir more easily, I'll have to install a barrier.

[edweather]

Container size also has a lot to do with the experience of the grower, who can definitely get more out of less, if experienced. This year I have 6 top watered containers, 2 five gallon and 4 ten gallon. The 5s and 10s are both producing excellent. Also have a 5 gal SIP, and like tlintx above, at a glance it appears to be out performing the top watered containers.....larger, darker green, faster growing plant. But the amount of tomatoes is about the same as the top watered, and I also battled BER on the SIP, and no BER so far on the others. For the top watered I originally started out 3 years ago with the 511 mix and almost immediately noticed that I needed more water retention. This year I'm using the recycled 511 from 3 years ago and it works well. Mulching the top of top watered containers might help a little, but IMO the plants drink 90% of the water, and the containers still need to be watered often. I can easily soak mine every day when the plants are large, and only skip a day if it's rainy cloudy and cool. Don't really have to worry about over watering, the mix drains well. So far I'm happy with top watered containers, and enjoy having fun with my lonely 5 gal SIP. I don't try and grow the largest plants or the biggest tomatoes. 1000 Black Cherries from a 5 gal bucket, or 20 Brandywines from a 10 gal container is good enough for me.

[Ed of Somis]

E...it sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. I am not happy with my support system this year (t posts with rope stretched between). What is your methods of support???

[AKmark]

In AK, I have large type plants in containers from 10-20 gallon (125 in smart pots) and a few plants in 2 gallon containers. All of them work if you keep them watered. However, the 20 gallon produces larger plants and more fruit, it really starts to show mid way through summer.

My friend grows in 4 gallon containers, his plants are tailored for container growth and he produces alot of tomatoes.

IMO, if you want to grow the fun stuff, just use a big container and it will probably impress you.

Mark