I am not new to gardening, nor am I new to growing Tom's

[Lidspinner]

but I will be darned if I cannot figure out this crossing tomatoes issue.....I have read and read and read some more on this site, every link provided, every blog, every post....I have read other sites, I even bought a book on genetics and I am even more confused than when I first decided to get into this new adventure.....I am horrible with numbers and fractions and stuff like that....saying F1 cross means something but it starts to confuse me when we start trying to follow genetic patterns on what to expect from your crosses.....I am sure at some point a light bulb will light up in my stubborn brain and it will all make sense, but till then I have some questions if y'all dont mind putting up with my stupidity....

my 3 favorite tomato plants are Black Krim, Cherokee Purple and Mr. Stripey.....the flavor in those 3 are just about perfect for my palate....my mouth actual waters when picking them and walking to the house....I cannot say for sure that I would like them if they are crossed but I would for sure like to give it a try.....so, what I am looking to accomplish by crossing these 3? should I cross them 3 or try to cross each one with another plant that is resistant to certain issues in my area? my only issue with these 2 plants are the top parts get the cracked look to them, but just at the very top....whereas a early girl is smaller yet has the perfect round look to her with no blemishes at all........which leads me to this question, is blemishing gene related?

as you can tell, I have so many issues that are confusing me but I am at my wits end on as far as research goes,.....I have researched myself into not wanting to cross plants at all....it intrigues me and I see it as an art, not a science, but it sure is pushing me in the opposite direction that i want to go in....

what I am looking to accomplish over the course of say 3-5 years is to make the 3 Toms that I prefer just that much better......I am not interested in making something to sell, just a tom to pass on to my friends and family to grow once I have it all dialed in to be the perfect tomato plant for me.

is there a cliff note version of crossing? a pictorial guide would be of great value to my pea brain!!!!!

Thanks in advance...I love this site...found it on my iphone and look at it daily..you people are the best.

[Gobig_or_Gohome_toms]

The Making Crosses and Tomato Gene Basics links on this page might be helpful:
http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/culture.htm

Here is a link to the main page as well:
http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/

Craig

[nctomatoman]

Hey Lidspinner.....let me have a go at crossing at a very, very basic level.

We will use the three tomatoes you mentioned, because they are all what are called open pollinated - meaning they are stable varieties - saved seed from each will continue to grow the variety as you know it (and as they've been for many years.

First - tomatoes are not like squash - there are no female or male flowers - both female and male parts are on each flower. So to get a fruit, pollen from the male part brushes up against the female part as the flower opens - pollen goes down the little tube, and if it works, you will end up with a tomato.

Next - let's say you wanted to grow a hybrid - such as Big Boy or Sungold. The seed that you get in the packet you purchased is F1 hybrid seed - first generation. The seed companies take the pollen (male) from one parent and apply it to the female part of the flower on the other parent (the male parts - pollen - are removed before it can fertilize itself). If a fruit forms, all of the seed in that fruit are the first generation hybrid - F1. They end up in packets for us to purchase. So each hybrid seed comes from a hand pollinated fruit between the two parent varieties.

So you grow that hybrid - and get Sungold, or Big Boy, or whatever hybrid you purchased. The seeds in the fruits on those plants are second generation - a generation removed from the actual act that created the hybrid. You get something called segregation happening at this point - all of the seeds in a tomato are not the same in the F2 generation - you may get something that looks like one parent, or the other parent, or something in between.

One other thing about hybrids - let's say you are going to cross Black Krim with Cherokee Purple. There is no guarantee that the hybrid that results is going to be better than, or even as good as, either parent. Flavor is a complex characteristic, and sometimes the genetics just don't work out.

So you made a good point - why do the cross in the first place if you like each of those three so much? Are you trying for something better? It's always possible. And you have choices (many, likely!). First, if you do the cross, and it takes, and you grow the F1 hybrid - that's one choice - it may be really good. But seed saved from it will not be uniform, or even predictable - so if you really want to keep growing the hybrid, you will have to ensure you have plenty of the hybrid seed - maybe do the cross half a dozen times or so, save all of the seeds - they will last for years.

As for the other choices - let's say you don't want a hybrid variety, but instead one that behaves like Cherokee Purple or black Krim in that they are stable and reliable from saved seed. Now you are into some genetics work - you will need to grow the hybrid, save seeds, grow a bunch (because you will get some that resemble each parent and things in between - some you may like, some not). So let's say you find one you really like - it is an F2. Save seed from fruit from just that plant - grow out a bunch the next year - you may find another array of varieties of various characteristics, but manage to find one that is just like what you wanted - save seed. And repeat this for 5 or 6 or 7 seasons until you have a stable new variety that you just love.

So - there it is in very simple terms - what are your questions? No need for lots of math, fractions, etc - really about making a successful cross, then just finding the room to grow out many of the offspring, and be good at making observations and keeping good records.

[Lidspinner]

nctomatoman...........that is the best its registered to me yet...thank you for taking the time to write that up.

I guess I still have issues regarding the chances or odds that you will get what your looking for by crossing 2 toms.....what I mean is, if you are crossing a black krim for its taste with a mr stripey for its size and texture, how long could you be crossing to get exactly what you want? I guess I kind of always thought in the back of my little brain that crossing was a for sure thing that you would eventually get what you are looking for.....but I think I am learning that is not the case, you may never get exactly what your looking for.....you might keep growing out seeds from ones that have the traits you desire, but its not a certain that the offspring will have that trait.....is that a fairly accurate account of crossing toms?

I think some of its starting to click and make sense....I guess the best thing for me to do is just get a log book and start crossing and trying to learn on the fly.....I am great at keeping records but my downfall is I hate starting a project without knowing 100% for sure what it is that I am doing....I hate learning on the fly....but with cross bredding I think that is the best way to go about......so many options....I love the idea behind it though.....

thanks again, I guess I will just keep this thread going with questions I have as I get started.....I am assuming I will have to wait till next year or could I cross some of my late blooming upper flowers on the plants I have now? does the fruit have to fully mature for me to use the seed?

[nctomatoman]

Hey again - you only need to do the cross once - on only one tomato - that will give you plenty of F1 hybrid seeds, and really you only need to grow 1. That single plant will give you lots of F2 seed to play with - and it is really the growing of the F2 generation seed from your new hybrid that you want to grow as many as you want from to see if you can find what you are looking for.

After that, it is luck of the draw - and growing out as many of the F2 as you can fit - maybe getting friends and family to help, or getting people at Tomatoville to help - it is all about evaluating at that point, and you can plant them in small pots - don't forget, at that point, the key is just getting a couple of ripe fruit on the plants to see what they produce.

And each year after that is the same - to see if what you select for is starting to stabilize.

There are people here who are good at crossing as well - and are happy to help....so if you have a cross or two or three in mind, and want an "expert" to do the cross and provide you with the hybrid, you can always suggest it and see if you can get a hybridizing volunteer to help you out.