Can actinovate stunt seedling growth? - Page 2

RayR · May 28, 2013

All good questions, probably would make a microbiologist say hmmmm?
All I know is microbial competition for real estate and food sources is normal in nature, but what happens in a laboratory brew or a petri dish, a pot culture, compost tea, on leaf surfaces or a garden bed can be very different. In healthy soil there is a vast number of different species of bacteria, archea, algae, fungi, yeasts and higher predators like protozoa, nematodes, mites and other critters. Things tend to sort themselves out there, everybody has their niche and survives but no one group of species dominates. Various species of Lactobacillus and Streptomyces exist together in natural soils without any problem I'm aware of, but it looks like when you put them in a confined environment together things can get ugly.

How they interact above ground on leaf surfaces is a good question. Leaves and stems are a tough neighborhood for microbes, first thing is whether they are UV tolerant or not, only UV tolerant species can withstand the UV radiation from sunlight, everybody else is dead meat.
Just quickly looking for info on Lactobacillus species, it appears some are UV tolerant and some are not. Some have been isolated from leaf surfaces. Where those species that you are culturing in bokashi from EM-1 fit in, I don't know. I think we would have to look into that.

RayR · May 30, 2013

I found this bit of information by Dr. Elaine Ingham in the Yahoo Compost Teas, The Soil Food Web & Soils group that further supports what happened to the PH.

Quote:

When dealing with the lactobacilli, you are setting the stage for a very
different set of processes than when you allow the run-of-the-mill
putrefactive anaerobes to proliferate.

Lactobacillus species establish a particular set of conditions that
prevent the growth of other organisms. Lactobacilli work to reach a
particular pH by releasing certain organic acids. They also control
nutrient availability and thus prevent the growth of bacteria like E.
coli and other human pathogens.

Siberian · May 31, 2013

Great find! Dr. Ingham has really done some great work - too bad I wish she was wrong here

Definitely a lesson learned.

As for my plants, the ones that received the calcium do look a little better but I it seems too early to tell. I have a number of plants (most all of them are in the ground at this point) that are basically just not growing (all hit with EM1 previously), and I'm not sure what to do. The pH raising solutions that you buy in the store are not something I want to use -- they are fairly heavy duty chemicals that I try to avoid but if it meant life or death for the plants, I would use them. Any suggestions? Could I 'override' the EM1 with a second drench of actinovate? Do I stick with calcium and cross my fingers?

I don't mind experimenting and possibly losing a few plants but this year I am growing for some other people who fully expect their plants to produce.

Redbaron · May 31, 2013

I can't say for sure, because I don't have your problem, so I never tried to fix your specific problem first hand.

BUT you can try this general technique I use when something I can't identify is causing my plants to just "sit there". Find a spot on your lawn with plenty of clover. Mow it but leave the clippings spread out to dry a day like a farmer dries hay.

Next day or even late the same day, rake it up and put it in a burlap bag (or other cloth like a pillow case). Put it in a wheel barrow and spray the bag with a hose till the wheel barrow is about 1/2 full of water.

If you did it right, the water should be green. Dunk and squeeze the bag like you would a giant tea bag making "sun tea". Use that water to foliage spray and water your plants.....while it is still fresh.

This should give your plants enough of a boost they can grow out of their blahs. Unless there is something more serious going on you haven't noticed or mentioned.

RayR · May 31, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian

Great find! Dr. Ingham has really done some great work - too bad I wish she was wrong here

Definitely a lesson learned.

As for my plants, the ones that received the calcium do look a little better but I it seems too early to tell. I have a number of plants (most all of them are in the ground at this point) that are basically just not growing (all hit with EM1 previously), and I'm not sure what to do. The pH raising solutions that you buy in the store are not something I want to use -- they are fairly heavy duty chemicals that I try to avoid but if it meant life or death for the plants, I would use them. Any suggestions? Could I 'override' the EM1 with a second drench of actinovate? Do I stick with calcium and cross my fingers?

I don't mind experimenting and possibly losing a few plants but this year I am growing for some other people who fully expect their plants to produce.

Have you contacted Teraganix and explained what you did? They may be able to give you some insight into what steps to take. You really stumbled into unknown territory here with the combo of EM-1 and Actinovate.
There is no way of knowing if your attempts at raising the PH helps unless you monitor the PH and any changes in plant growth over at least a period of 2 weeks. A second drench of Actinovate could be like pouring gasoline on a fire too, so I would be leery of trying that without some professional advise.

Siberian · June 1, 2013

Yup, I have an email in with the Teraganix folks (they are closed on saturdays) as well as with Boomer from Natural Industries (makers of Actinovate). Just wanted to see if anyone else had any suggestions.

In the meantime I am foliar feeding the plants with both kelp and fish in the hopes they can get some nutrients that way. I'll keep this updated for those interested.

Siberian · June 3, 2013

In case anyone is still following... The Teraganix folks are wonderful. After numerous emails to a gentleman named Eric, I learned I was applying EM1 at wayyy to strong of a rate. For greenhouse/nursery growing (aka for young seedlings), the recommended amount is 1/7oz per gallon whereas I was applying at no less than 1/2 and up to 1 full oz per gallon.

They also made mention of using activated EM1 rather than the regular EM1 though I'm not sure what difference it makes. Also I started my seedlings in peat and potted them up to a peat-based mix which tends to be acidic.

All in all, they recommended flushing really well (2-3x longer than the usual watering) then at the following watering adding 3 tbsp lime and 1 tbsp activated EM1 to every 1.5 gallons of water and watering fully. I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

Redbaron · June 3, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian

I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

Or you could try what I recommended.

Anyway, I am glad you figured out the issue. Seems at the very least you will not repeat that mistake, and others following the thread might escape the same problem.

RayR · June 3, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian

In case anyone is still following... The Teraganix folks are wonderful. After numerous emails to a gentleman named Eric, I learned I was applying EM1 at wayyy to strong of a rate. For greenhouse/nursery growing (aka for young seedlings), the recommended amount is 1/7oz per gallon whereas I was applying at no less than 1/2 and up to 1 full oz per gallon.

They also made mention of using activated EM1 rather than the regular EM1 though I'm not sure what difference it makes. Also I started my seedlings in peat and potted them up to a peat-based mix which tends to be acidic.

All in all, they recommended flushing really well (2-3x longer than the usual watering) then at the following watering adding 3 tbsp lime and 1 tbsp activated EM1 to every 1.5 gallons of water and watering fully. I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

What Eric is talking about is this. Since EM-1 is only sold as dormant spores, you have to brew your own live culture. You were inoculating with a concentrated spore mass at a super high concentration. I think when all those babies woke up they were super hungry and aggressive in that small space they were trapped in.
Flushing is a good idea, I was thinking earlier that I would have just bare rooted the seedlings and potted them up in fresh soil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Or you could try what I recommended.

Anyway, I am glad you figured out the issue. Seems at the very least you will not repeat that mistake, and others following the thread might escape the same problem.

OK Redbaron, You've got me curious now, how would your botanical solution solve this microbial problem?

Redbaron · June 3, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayR

What Eric is talking about is this. Since EM-1 is only sold as dormant spores, you have to brew your own live culture. You were inoculating with a concentrated spore mass at a super high concentration. I think when all those babies woke up they were super hungry and aggressive in that small space they were trapped in.
Flushing is a good idea, I was thinking earlier that I would have just bare rooted the seedlings and potted them up in fresh soil.

OK Redbaron, You've got me curious now, how would your botanical solution solve this microbial problem?

Simple. First is the flushing effect mentioned above. Next is the nutrients in the solution. The whole idea of a symbiotic relationship created by microbes is the microbes need fed first, and later pay back that debt. Since he used too high a concentrate, there were too many and overwhelmed the small plants. So the fresh "tea" both flushes AND feeds them while at the same time getting to the plant what it needs to "jump start" growth again. Time for the microbial life to repay that debt!

I am pretty sure it will work. Not certain, as I stated earlier, but pretty sure.

Siberian · June 3, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayR

What Eric is talking about is this.

Yeah, I am familiar with activated EM1 and have done this process myself but what I was saying was I'm not sure why he recommended use of the activated versus regular versions. No big deal though, I'll just go with activated from now on.

But since you brought it up, it would be news to me that EM1 as it is sold is 'concentrated' and needs to go through the activation to wake it up. I had thought the activation was simply 'extending' the solution in that you give the microbes in the EM1 some extra food (sugar) and they multiple to make more of it for you (and not necessarily just come out of dormancy). I've used EM1 as is (not activated) and the microbes seemed pretty alive based on the effect they have had. This thread shows what I know though

And RedBaron, I wasn't ignoring your post and I do thank you for it. I know for a fact this is at least partially a pH issue, so my first order of business is to raise that pH and then I will use your solution.

RayR · June 3, 2013

I need to correct myself since Lactobacillus don't form spores, they only reproduce by binary fission, but still in the bottle they have to be kept in a more dormant state where they won't be reproducing and fermenting sugars. Dormancy is still alive but in a very low metabolic state. If they were fully active, the bottle would eventually explode from gas buildup from fermentation. EM-1 also contains Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Brewer's Yeast) which is another critter that gives off gas when active. I'm guessing they do that by limiting the food supply. Most bacteria just go in a dormant state when food is limited and they don't reproduce by binary fission for the same reason. Lactobacillus are facultative anaerobes and reproduce best when oxygen levels are low and there is plentiful carbohydrates available, the reason for the activation process. According to Teraganix, activation can expand the population 22 times, so I can see you can produce a lot more than what comes in the bottle. There must be some difference in the behavior of the well fed activated culture when released in the soil and what comes straight from the bottle. Good question for Eric.

Siberian · June 17, 2013

Just an update. Most plants have been hit with some form of calcium carbonate aka lime. There's a couple that seem to be doing better, but most are just kind of sitting there. Makes me wonder if the bacteria are just driving the pH back down after the liming. A few plants (that were not touched with calcium or any other treatment) seem to be 'breaking through' as they are greening up and showing noticeable growth. Alas, most are just sitting there still.

Any thoughts on feeding the bacteria with some molasses in the hopes that them being fed will then encourage them to 'repay' their debt to the plant via increased nutrient absorption. It may just lead to the bacteria reproducing which would make the problem worse, but I may try on a couple plants.

Could anything be more frustrating than plants stopping their growth while otherwise looking healthy?!?

RayR · June 17, 2013

Won't feeding the Lactobacillus carbs just make them multiply faster and probably tie up more Nitrogen? I really don't know how well they reproduce in aerobic conditions, but it's a common warning about adding too much sugars in soil unless you are trying to moderate excessive N. Bacteria are the primary sinks for N in soil and they are greedy, they don't pay back in N until they die, eaten by predators. So too much carbs will encourage a greater bacterial population and more N will be tied up as a result.
I do understand that one of the benefits of Lactobacillus is the lactic acid they produce plays a role in phosphate solubilization, making more P available to the plant. How the other species in EM-1 benefit the plant I even know less about.

Siberian · June 18, 2013

You're probably right Ray. I'm just kind of grasping at straws here. Not sure what else to do to get everything growing.

My only other thought was use a root stimulant of some sort in the hopes that some of the new roots that grow (if any can/do) won't be so heavily colonized by the bacteria and therefore more able to take up nitrogen. Not a very scientific approach, I know, but like said this is uncharted territory for me.

May 31, 2013	#19
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	I can't say for sure, because I don't have your problem, so I never tried to fix your specific problem first hand. BUT you can try this general technique I use when something I can't identify is causing my plants to just "sit there". Find a spot on your lawn with plenty of clover. Mow it but leave the clippings spread out to dry a day like a farmer dries hay. Next day or even late the same day, rake it up and put it in a burlap bag (or other cloth like a pillow case). Put it in a wheel barrow and spray the bag with a hose till the wheel barrow is about 1/2 full of water. If you did it right, the water should be green. Dunk and squeeze the bag like you would a giant tea bag making "sun tea". Use that water to foliage spray and water your plants.....while it is still fresh. This should give your plants enough of a boost they can grow out of their blahs. Unless there is something more serious going on you haven't noticed or mentioned. __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture

May 28, 2013	#16
RayR Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cheektowaga, NY Posts: 2,464	All good questions, probably would make a microbiologist say hmmmm? All I know is microbial competition for real estate and food sources is normal in nature, but what happens in a laboratory brew or a petri dish, a pot culture, compost tea, on leaf surfaces or a garden bed can be very different. In healthy soil there is a vast number of different species of bacteria, archea, algae, fungi, yeasts and higher predators like protozoa, nematodes, mites and other critters. Things tend to sort themselves out there, everybody has their niche and survives but no one group of species dominates. Various species of Lactobacillus and Streptomyces exist together in natural soils without any problem I'm aware of, but it looks like when you put them in a confined environment together things can get ugly. How they interact above ground on leaf surfaces is a good question. Leaves and stems are a tough neighborhood for microbes, first thing is whether they are UV tolerant or not, only UV tolerant species can withstand the UV radiation from sunlight, everybody else is dead meat. Just quickly looking for info on Lactobacillus species, it appears some are UV tolerant and some are not. Some have been isolated from leaf surfaces. Where those species that you are culturing in bokashi from EM-1 fit in, I don't know. I think we would have to look into that.

May 31, 2013	#18
Siberian Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 49	Great find! Dr. Ingham has really done some great work - too bad I wish she was wrong here Definitely a lesson learned. As for my plants, the ones that received the calcium do look a little better but I it seems too early to tell. I have a number of plants (most all of them are in the ground at this point) that are basically just not growing (all hit with EM1 previously), and I'm not sure what to do. The pH raising solutions that you buy in the store are not something I want to use -- they are fairly heavy duty chemicals that I try to avoid but if it meant life or death for the plants, I would use them. Any suggestions? Could I 'override' the EM1 with a second drench of actinovate? Do I stick with calcium and cross my fingers? I don't mind experimenting and possibly losing a few plants but this year I am growing for some other people who fully expect their plants to produce.

June 1, 2013	#21
Siberian Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 49	Yup, I have an email in with the Teraganix folks (they are closed on saturdays) as well as with Boomer from Natural Industries (makers of Actinovate). Just wanted to see if anyone else had any suggestions. In the meantime I am foliar feeding the plants with both kelp and fish in the hopes they can get some nutrients that way. I'll keep this updated for those interested.

June 3, 2013	#22
Siberian Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 49	In case anyone is still following... The Teraganix folks are wonderful. After numerous emails to a gentleman named Eric, I learned I was applying EM1 at wayyy to strong of a rate. For greenhouse/nursery growing (aka for young seedlings), the recommended amount is 1/7oz per gallon whereas I was applying at no less than 1/2 and up to 1 full oz per gallon. They also made mention of using activated EM1 rather than the regular EM1 though I'm not sure what difference it makes. Also I started my seedlings in peat and potted them up to a peat-based mix which tends to be acidic. All in all, they recommended flushing really well (2-3x longer than the usual watering) then at the following watering adding 3 tbsp lime and 1 tbsp activated EM1 to every 1.5 gallons of water and watering fully. I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

June 17, 2013	#28
Siberian Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 49	Just an update. Most plants have been hit with some form of calcium carbonate aka lime. There's a couple that seem to be doing better, but most are just kind of sitting there. Makes me wonder if the bacteria are just driving the pH back down after the liming. A few plants (that were not touched with calcium or any other treatment) seem to be 'breaking through' as they are greening up and showing noticeable growth. Alas, most are just sitting there still. Any thoughts on feeding the bacteria with some molasses in the hopes that them being fed will then encourage them to 'repay' their debt to the plant via increased nutrient absorption. It may just lead to the bacteria reproducing which would make the problem worse, but I may try on a couple plants. Could anything be more frustrating than plants stopping their growth while otherwise looking healthy?!?

June 18, 2013	#30
Siberian Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NJ Posts: 49	You're probably right Ray. I'm just kind of grasping at straws here. Not sure what else to do to get everything growing. My only other thought was use a root stimulant of some sort in the hopes that some of the new roots that grow (if any can/do) won't be so heavily colonized by the bacteria and therefore more able to take up nitrogen. Not a very scientific approach, I know, but like said this is uncharted territory for me.