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Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.

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Old July 6, 2014   #1
Whwoz
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Default Breeding for Pastes

Here in Oz we seem to have a very limited range of pastes in colours other than red. If one were to start a breeding program aimed at breeding coloured pastes what features would one be looking for when it comes to selecting parents? Any thoughts/comments welcome.

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Old July 6, 2014   #2
joseph
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Blossom End Rot seems to afflict paste tomatoes at a high rate... If I were to attempt to breed a new paste tomato I would make sure that one of the parents was a variety that is known to rarely if ever get BER. If there are 5 or 10 or 30 genes that contribute to better resistance to BER then perhaps some of them would inadvertently get included into the new paste tomato. We might not know the names and modes of actions of all the contributing genes, but we can observe in general which plants are more resistant.

Cylindrical fruits tend to get BER more than round fruits, so I'd select towards a round paste tomato. Pointy tips on fruits tends towards BER so I'd select against that trait as well.

One time I grew a tomato that had air inside instead of gel. It was a very dry tomato. It seems like that would make a great paste tomato. A tomato doesn't have to look like the archetypical Roma in order to be a wonderful as a paste tomato.

I prefer paste tomatoes to be determinate. Because I use them primarily to make sauce I want the whole harvest ripen at the same time so I can do one big batch of sauce instead of lots of little ones.

I would select against catfacing because that makes peeling tomatoes problematic for those recipes that call for peeled tomatoes.

I prefer about 4 ounce fruits because they work better with my sauce making equipment than larger fruits.
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Old July 6, 2014   #3
Father'sDaughter
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I never really considered anything other than a red paste because all I've ever encountered is red tomato sauce. However, I received seeds for Polish Pastel in Tormato's swap and it intrigued me enough to grow it this year.

I would go with anything in the large plum family -- Romeo, Santa Maria, Casino, Rinaldo are all ones I have either grown or am growing. Franchi Giant Pear and the like would also be possibilities. I look for meaty, dry and few seeds.
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Old July 6, 2014   #4
Fusion_power
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First, define "paste" tomato. To me, it is a dense meaty tomato with low natural water content. This is what makes it easy to cook down into thick paste. I don't consider sauce tomatoes such as Opalka to be pastes, they contain too much water.

Red, Orange, Yellow, and Green pastes are available. There is a need to do some breeding work with them for disease tolerance and density.

If I were picking parents for a breeding program, I would consider Heidi and Costoluto Genovese as red parents. Jaune Flammee, Little Lucky, Black From Tula, and Green Giant for the other side of the cross.

One of the biggest areas to improve paste tomatoes would be to increase their sugar content. This would reduce the need to add sugar when processing. I can think of two lines that could do this, but neither is commonly available.
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Old July 6, 2014   #5
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Darrel, I have a dozen 97L97 growing this year. They are a great tomato to use in making ketchup. Thanks! You sent me six seeds two years ago and will grow these every year. Thanks again.
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Old July 6, 2014   #6
Worth1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
First, define "paste" tomato. To me, it is a dense meaty tomato with low natural water content. This is what makes it easy to cook down into thick paste. I don't consider sauce tomatoes such as Opalka to be pastes, they contain too much water.

Red, Orange, Yellow, and Green pastes are available. There is a need to do some breeding work with them for disease tolerance and density.

If I were picking parents for a breeding program, I would consider Heidi and Costoluto Genovese as red parents. Jaune Flammee, Little Lucky, Black From Tula, and Green Giant for the other side of the cross.

One of the biggest areas to improve paste tomatoes would be to increase their sugar content. This would reduce the need to add sugar when processing. I can think of two lines that could do this, but neither is commonly available.
Costoluto Genovese and Green Giant would be very interesting indeed.

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Old July 6, 2014   #7
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I think Zolotoe Serdtse and 97L97 would be a interesting combination.
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Old July 6, 2014   #8
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I like Fred Hempel's blush , lucky tiger, pink tiger, green tiger, and maglia rosa. Im really liking the lucky tiger....super sweet and not your typical paste color.
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Old July 9, 2014   #9
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There are some great tasting large indeterminate sauce tomatoes, mostly related to San Marzano. Many of these produce late. Find one that grows well in your area and cross it with other tomatoes with characteristic you desire like higher flavor, color, yield, and be prepared to grow a LOT of offspring through many generations, and to select the traits you like, and backcross and select again if needed. The varieties Fusion mentioned all have exceptional characteristics. Many of the best tasting sauce tomatoes have wispy foliage. You should think about your goals; Do you want fruit that tastes good fresh as well as cooked? Do you want a load of fruit all at once for processing? Do you can whole tomatoes, make sauce, paste, salsa?

Most of the determinate types I've grown lack superior flavor. Deeper color can mean more flavor emerges on cooking, but the "crimson gene" types didnt taste any better fresh i.m.o. Their advantage might be better color from fruits harvested at breaker stage.

The Hempel lines mentioned are truly masterpieces of tomato breeding, but I would not consider them sauce tomatoes.
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Old July 9, 2014   #10
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Agree with Swamper, those Tomatoes mentioned bred by Mr. Hempel are not pastes. I do think the main reason why most actual paste tomatoes are red is because that is what color sauce people want. I am sure you could breed a green paste or a yellow paste but folks won't like the color they cook down to be. True Pastes are dry with minimal gel or seeds and are for cooking/recipes only in my opinion, not for fresh eating.
Plums are not pastes, nor are hearts or elongated cherries or saladette style oval tomatoes. Now those are for fresh eating or also may be canned or used in recipes so they are more versatile than pastes in my opinion and come in many colors.
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Old July 9, 2014   #11
Fred Hempel
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I think orange and pink are viable paste tomato colors.

Once I gave a bunch of paste tomatoes to a chef, and included an orange tomato, even though I thought I might be wasting her time with the orange variety.

The orange turned out to be her favorite because 1) it produced a delightful specialty sauce (smaller cells and more delicate flavor), and 2) she found that adding it to a blended sauce (with red tomatoes) brightened the red sauce both color-wise and flavor-wise. She took the Rhone wine approach to blended tomato sauces...
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Old July 9, 2014   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenO View Post
Agree with Swamper, those Tomatoes mentioned bred by Mr. Hempel are not pastes. I do think the main reason why most actual paste tomatoes are red is because that is what color sauce people want. I am sure you could breed a green paste or a yellow paste but folks won't like the color they cook down to be. True Pastes are dry with minimal gel or seeds and are for cooking/recipes only in my opinion, not for fresh eating.
Plums are not pastes, nor are hearts or elongated cherries or saladette style oval tomatoes. Now those are for fresh eating or also may be canned or used in recipes so they are more versatile than pastes in my opinion and come in many colors.
Karen

They had some green ketchup a while back I dont see anymore.

A real flop, I didn't buy any.

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Old July 9, 2014   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenO View Post
True Pastes are dry with minimal gel or seeds and are for cooking/recipes only in my opinion, not for fresh eating.
Plums are not pastes,
Karen
I'm not really clear on the difference between plum and paste. I always assumed that plum describes shape, and paste tomatoes are defined by their lower juice content.

I'm curious whether you consider San Marzano a plum or a paste? or both?

Is Costoluto Genovese a paste?

There may be some important nutritional considerations with yellow-orange tomatoes which are higher in beta carotene versus lycopene in the red. A good reason to blend colors as Fred suggested, especially favoring the yellow-orange fruits.
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Old July 9, 2014   #14
Fusion_power
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Paste designates dense meaty with low water content.

Plum designates an elongated shape

Costoluto Genovese is a dense meaty tomato therefore is a paste type

97L97 as mentioned above is interesting as a paste tomato because of the 40X carotene. Flavor is seriously deficient IMO.

I have some seed from a Rio Grande bee made cross that would be interesting to pursue if someone wants to give it a try. It looks like a beefsteak red crossed to the elongated Rio Grande. Possible segregants could include a huge deep oval tomato.
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Old July 10, 2014   #15
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Wonder why no one has mentioned Speckled Roman as a good starting point - a very yummy paste and cooks down to a rich sauce (if memory serves)

and in reading an unrelated recent post Aunt Gertie's gold was mentioned - brought back memories - fabulous taste but very low production in my experience - this could be a wonderful combination - no?
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