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Old September 9, 2015   #91
bower
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The Beta line I've been working with - from Zolotoe Serdtse - are really slow ripening, no matter what colour. The ones with just one Beta allele turn bright orange first - just like a B/B - but then slowly deepen to orange-red.
Maybe the 97L97 cross is just slower ripening than the JF?
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Old September 9, 2015   #92
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There are two separate genes involved. One is Tangerine on chromosome 10 in Jaune Flamme.

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/GenDetail.aspx?Gene=t

The other is Beta Carotene on chromosome 6 in 97L97.

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/GenDetail.aspx?Gene=B

The key difference is that Tangerine is from interrupting the lycopene biopath. The tangerine color is from accumulation of prolycopene which gives a rich orange color. When heterozygous with a normal lycopene gene, prolycopene is converted into lycopene which is red. Therefore a cross of Tangerine X Lycopene always produces a red Lycopene fruit.

Beta Carotene is different in that it is a parallel biopath to lycopene. You can get both lycopene and beta carotene into the same plant. Caro Red is just such a plant with both beta carotene and lycopene in the same fruit. The result can vary from pale reddish orange to rich orangish red. Caro Red!

Last edited by Fusion_power; September 9, 2015 at 10:31 PM.
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Old September 10, 2015   #93
crmauch
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My reading has indicated that Jaune Flamme is not a tangerine variety (which wouldn't have significant Beta-carotene if I understand things)

http://fic.osu.edu/Orchard_OARDC_20141.pdf

Where did you see that Jaune Flamme was a tangerine variety?

I didn't have the impression that beta as an alternate biopath?? I was more under the impression that beta was a further step past lycopene. I'm under the impression that you have to have R in order to get to Beta.

http://frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/20...-color-in.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
There are two separate genes involved. One is Tangerine on chromosome 10 in Jaune Flamme.

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/GenDetail.aspx?Gene=t

The other is Beta Carotene on chromosome 6 in 97L97.

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/GenDetail.aspx?Gene=B

The key difference is that Tangerine is from interrupting the lycopene biopath. The tangerine color is from accumulation of prolycopene which gives a rich orange color. When heterozygous with a normal lycopene gene, prolycopene is converted into lycopene which is red. Therefore a cross of Tangerine X Lycopene always produces a red Lycopene fruit.

Beta Carotene is different in that it is a parallel biopath to lycopene. You can get both lycopene and beta carotene into the same plant. Caro Red is just such a plant with both beta carotene and lycopene in the same fruit. The result can vary from pale reddish orange to rich orangish red. Caro Red!
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Old September 10, 2015   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bower View Post
The Beta line I've been working with - from Zolotoe Serdtse - are really slow ripening, no matter what colour. The ones with just one Beta allele turn bright orange first - just like a B/B - but then slowly deepen to orange-red.
Maybe the 97L97 cross is just slower ripening than the JF?
Nope, I'm positive - they never get red.
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Old September 10, 2015   #95
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Let me see if I can make this work by using your crosses to illustrate the differences in the genes.

Jaune Flamme X Opalka results in a red tomato. It is notably less red than a pure Opalka, but still it is fundamentally red. This indicates that the Tangerine gene is in play. Tangerine is from deactivation of a single gene that affects isomerization of cis-phytofluene into trans-phytofluene. If a normal red variety is crossed with a tangerine variety, the result is always a red fruit because the normal red gene restores function for the biopath that produces lycopene. It is not 100% effective in doing so therefore the crossed fruit will appear more orange than the red parent.

The Beta Carotene gene present in 97L97 is derived from S. Cheesmanii. It is separate and distinct from the Tangerine gene even though both are involved in the same biopath. The difference is that the tangerine gene gives rich orange color by interrupting synthesis of lycopene where the Beta Carotene gene hijacks the lycopene biopath and diverts the output into beta carotene. So the result of crossing a beta carotene variety to a red variety will still hijack the lycopene biopath which makes orange the dominant color. In other words, Jaune Flammee MUST be a Tangerine variety because crosses to lycopene always gives a red fruit and 97L97 MUST be a Beta Carotene variety because crosses to lycopene always gives orange fruit.

Orange fruit color is a single apparent phenotype but with multiple gene variations that that can produce it. In this, it is similar to the chlorophyll breakdown gene that results in black tomatoes where several unique mutations in a single gene result in the phenotype of black fruit.

If you looked carefully at the charts in the link you provided, you will see that Jaune Flamme is very low in total carotenoids compared to most other varieties. it contains significant amounts of beta carotene because it has a normal functioning gene to produce beta carotene, but it does not have an active gene to complete the biopath for lycopene.

Please cross check this in the literature, I don't claim to be an expert on tomato genetics!
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Old September 10, 2015   #96
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Very intriguing...
There's no picture of Jaune Flammee flowers at Tatiana's, but I did find two pics by google and on the basis of anther colour (in pics less than ideal) I wouldn't think the orange is from tangerine, which produces a noticeable deep orange anther cone.
http://davessfggarden.blogspot.ca/20...tory-2015.html
http://thegourmandsprogress.blogspot...midsummer.html
Maybe someone has a JF out there with flowers and could post us a better pic.

Chris your F1 results seem to rule out Beta orange in JF, and if the flowers don't confirm it as tangerine, then it must be Delta or one of the other orange genes.
Delta is supposed to produce mostly carotenoids other than Beta carotene (or lycopene) so perhaps the test didn't distinguish them adequately?
On the other hand, apricot is described as having a red blush in the flesh? Could JF be an apricot orange?
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Old September 10, 2015   #97
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Jaune Flamme has a reputation as a high beta-carotene variety and I see nothing in the data that it does not have the B gene. It is definitely not tangerine, if it was it would have a fraction of the beta-carotene and lycopene values indicated in the chart.

Also, see pics of Perfect Flame tomato which is a cross of JF and Peron: http://www.hgtvgardens.com/photo/per...f-fb76ac080000

Not sure why there are different results with one cross giving orange/red F1 and the other more a straight orange, but one possibility is that the Beta genes involved in each of the lines were introgressed from different wild relatives and therefore represent different alleles and/or bring along different modifier genes, thus affecting both the total caretenoid content and the ratios of beta-carotene to lycopene.
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Old September 10, 2015   #98
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Oops, I got a bit confused about the colour of the JF X F1's... looking back I see your pics of the orange stage and that they are orange-red not red ultimately.
maf is right, it must be modifiers from 97L97 and/or difference of alleles that makes the F1's orange.... cool!
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Old September 10, 2015   #99
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Keep in mind that there are multiple alleles of the tangerine gene and possibly even complete deletions. Just because the phenotype of one gives orange anthers does not mean all of them do. When I refer to tangerine in describing the genes, I am using it in the generic sense, in other words, not specifying which allele is in play, just that the tangerine gene is the most likely candidate to cause the effects in the pics. Anything that disrupts phytoene conversion to lycopene is highly likely to produce the same effect.

Alternative explanations could be that Jaune Flamme has a different gene entirely but still in the lycopene biopath with the same net effect as tangerine. This would produce the observed incomplete dominance of lycopene in the F1. Given that it has a functional Beta Carotene gene, it would produce the orange colored fruit without lycopene. Note from the charts that JF aligns closely with S. Habrochaites which indicates this is either a gene deactivation or a gene deletion.

Don't think of B as exclusive. Given the locations on chromosomes 6 and 10, a tomato could have both B and t genes at the same time. Also given that beta carotene expresses to some degree in all tomatoes, there must be a point in the carotenoid biopath where the final product is Beta Carotene and if functional lycopene genes are present, then that Beta Carotene must instead be converted into lycopene resulting in red color. Dig around in the literature, I'm sure I've seen this described in an article within the last 10 years.

Reading the literature, there is a similar effect in lines containing Del where it is combined with a dysfunctional t gene giving the phenotype of deep reddish orange from delta carotene. All non-red tomatoes must have a breakdown point which prevents lycopene accumulation. This is usually t when orange is produced. White/green tomatoes would have a much earlier break in the lycopene biopath. This would produce the observed effect of a yellow X green cross producing a range of green, yellow, orange, and red offspring in the F2.

Last edited by Fusion_power; September 10, 2015 at 10:45 AM.
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Old September 10, 2015   #100
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The only explanation for the high levels of beta-carotene in Jaune Flamme is the Beta gene. Delta would have far less. Apricot would have far less. Tangerine tt would have far less. tt combined with Beta BB or Bb would have the same caretenoid content as regular tt as t affects the caretenoid pathway before B and effectively nullifies B in the same way that rr does.
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Old September 10, 2015   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maf View Post
The only explanation for the high levels of beta-carotene in Jaune Flamme is the Beta gene. Delta would have far less. Apricot would have far less. Tangerine tt would have far less. tt combined with Beta BB or Bb would have the same caretenoid content as regular tt as t affects the caretenoid pathway before B and effectively nullifies B in the same way that rr does.
This goes along with my 'belief' (based on reading), that you have to have a lycopene pathway to then get Beta carotene. I at least attempted to only cross with B (Beta carotene) genes.

Abbreviations used below: BC (beta-carotene), JF (Jaune Flamme), MOB (mo-B gene - lower case when 'not present')

This is my current line of thinking (please argue if you think I'm wrong):

Both Jaune Flamme (JF) and 97L97 have the B gene homozygously. BB

But given that JF has both BC and lycopene it does not have the modifier gene mo-B that boosts BC. So it likely is BB mob mob

I'm guessing that 97L97 with its higher BC output has the modifier gene so it is likely BB MOB MOB.

So the JF with Opalka gives an Orange-red tomato with only partial (visable) expression of Beta while I would guess the 97L97XOpalka cross would have some lycopene but be overwhelmed by the higher BC output by the B/MOB combo:

PasteBreeding.jpg

Ultimately I want a high BC paste and the 97L97 cross is much closer. So I'm probably going forward at the moment with the 97L97 cross. The disadvantage is that B is linked so the determinate (sp gene) on chromsome 6, so I'm going to have to look for breakage in that (which is why I used JF as a breeding parent as that linkage was already broken) [and I was looking to develop an indeterminate].

It also gives me a round about way to check for the the presence of the MOB gene. If I've developed a stable orange (BB), and then cross it back to a red like Opalka, then if I get orange the parent is likely BBMOBMOB, if I get orange-red then MOB is not present and I have mob.

Thoughts?
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Old September 10, 2015   #102
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That 'belief' is a very plausible possibility. There is also the possibility that different modifier genes exist or that introgressions of B from different species are different alleles with slightly different effect. I don't know enough to say for sure, but I know enough to rule out tangerine.

How tight is the linkage with sp? If not too tight it might just be a case of a slightly larger growout needed to find an indy Beta from that line.

In the line crossed to JF you should be able to get back to the original colour of JF if that is orange enough for your needs.

Also I believe that the Sungold and Sun Sugar types have the Beta gene, so that might be another source of the Beta gene linked to indeterminate rather than determinate.
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Old September 10, 2015   #103
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I didn't know about the linkage with sp but it does fit the segregation in my F2's. Just one BB and it was the one semi-determinate. Ironically, trying to do the opposite thing here, ie get different colours with the semi-determinate growth habit.

I found this history:
http://tgc.ifas.ufl.edu/vol37/vol37h...aatchkova1.htm
and I suspect Zolotoe Serdtse and Orange-1 may be derived from the "Carobeta" tomato line they developed out of S. galapagense. ( Partly because of the description ".. and continuously preserving its hardness." Yep.)
According to this, the wild parent was linked to sp+ indeterminate habit, which they broke. You could go back to cheesmanii or galapagense for sp+ and also keep the MoB which they seem to have as well.
ZS doesn't seem to have the MoB, the heterozygous fruit are orange-red.
Sorry Chris, I don't know others.
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Old September 11, 2015   #104
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3793073/

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...2/387.full.pdf

The summary of gene action is:
Starts with geranylgeranyl pyrophosphate (GGPP) as the initial chemical input
PSY - chains 15-Cis-Phytoene and then to Phytofluene
PDS - chains tri-cis-carotene
ZISO - converts to di-cis-carotene
ZDS - converts to neurosporene then prolycopene
CrtISO - converts prolycopene to all trans lycopene = red fruit
Cyc-B - converts lycopene to y-lycopene
Beta - grabs the y-lycopene and chains the ends together to form Beta Carotene

Tangerine interrupts CrtISO therefore it disrupts the last step in the sequence before lycopene is produced. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC152916/

Yellow tomatoes interrupt at PSY which is at the beginning of the biopath. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8343597

Cyc-B converts lycopene into y-lycopene. I have not yet dug out a good article that describes this step. Beta grabs the y-lycopene and chains the ends together which converts it to Beta-Carotene. Beta is dependent on moB to complete the synthesis. I suggest that moB may be required for the y-lycopene intermediate step. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...C51782/?page=1

We know that 97L97 is homozygous for both Beta and moB. I suspect there are other genes that ramp up the entire lycopene biopath increasing the amount of trans-lycopene to be converted into Beta.

Online articles suggest that under some conditions Beta intercepts prolycopene prior to action by CrtISO. This may be light moderated though I can't document this if so. This implies action of other contributor genes beyond the above list.

This french document adds several steps to the carotene biopath. I found it very good reading especially since it quoted some of the documents above. See page 32 for details and 33 for a diagram. http://ethesis.inp-toulouse.fr/archi...1/grimplet.pdf


Adding up all the available information, Jaune Flamme cannot have yellow, apricot, or tangerine. The only valid explanation is that it has a modified Cyc-B which does not convert all the lycopene into Beta Carotene. This explains the phenotype of the Jaune Flamme X Opalka cross. By extension, it implies a different Cyc-B for 97L97 which is much more efficient at converting to Beta. This explains the phenotype of the 97L97 X Opalka cross. This implies that a modified Cyc-B and Mo-B combined are the difference between 97L97 and Jaune Flamme. http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iubmb/enz...erp/carot.html

There is only one thing that needs to be added. mo-b is recessive and results in 97L97 colored fruit. MO-B is dominant and results in fruit with roughly 50% lycopene and 50% Beta Carotene. Crossing MO-B (dominant form) with a normal red tomato would increase the amount of retained lycopene and decrease Beta Carotene levels but should give roughly the same total amount of carotenoids. http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...2/387.full.pdf

Last edited by Fusion_power; September 11, 2015 at 01:02 AM.
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Old September 11, 2015   #105
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Man, Am I glad I started this thread, but have I got some reading to do to get up to speed with where some of you folks are at with the genetics.

Woz
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