Uluru Ochre & the OSSI connection

**Patrina_Pepperina** · March 30, 2015

I'm hoping that it was mostly Tomatovillians who bought Uluru Ochre seeds from Tatiana and Remy who are both currently sold out, the 2 sources of its initial release. I would like to introduce a fairly recent initiative for open source seeds that I want to be associated with this new variety so I need to pass on that info here.

The Open Source Seed Initiative was launched a year ago but established a couple years earlier by breeders, farmers, advocates of food sustainability etc under the leadership of people such as Irwin Goldman and Jack Kloppenburg from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. I heard about their ideas recently in the documentary about seeds called "Open Sesame" and it gripped my attention immediately!

The idea is taken from Open Source software as a foil against the monopoly of the software giants and takes this idea in a slightly different direction - to encourage breeders of all sorts of plants, especially food, to place a new designation on what they breed as Open Source Seed which is to be shared without restrictions, no patents or intellectual property rights. It's not a legal commitment. It's an ethical commitment and one which I think most people here would agree with.

Since Uluru Ochre is very unusual in its colouring and we think it is a previously unknown colour in tomatoes, I am keen that Uluru Ochre should always be shared or sold openly without restriction, meaning that if someone decided to use the germplasm in breeding and to then patent it, the result may mean that no further development could occur with this colour or other aspects from its thousands of genes, and maybe would prevent it being sold at all. I'm not sure to what extent this could occur, but shudder to think when we consider what monopolies can achieve. Apparently 90% of the varieties grown in the beginning of the 1900s are already lost, eg of around 388 varieties of beets in 1905 we now have around 17, something like that... I'm not direct quoting, just from memory.

So I'm in the process of listing Uluru Ochre with the Open Source Seed Initiative and would like you to include something like the following on your seed packets when you share seed...

OSSI pledged - osseeds.org Seeds to be shared, NOT patented. Always include this note when sharing.

The FULL pledge actually reads:

The OSSI pledge
You have the freedom to use these OSSI seeds in any way you choose. In return, you pledge not to restrict others' use of these seeds or their derivatives by patents, licenses or other means, and to include this pledge with any transfer of these seeds or their derivatives.

Personally I think it's too long unless you happen to have printed labels to whack onto the envelopes, something I want to think about further myself since I hope to apply the OSSI notification to all my future releases, and certainly for my own seed distribution it would be very handy to have small stick-on labels. I use smallish coin envelopes when distributing seeds. But anyhow, hopefully people would check out the website if it's listed on their seed packet to find out what OSSI means.

Tatiana and Remy have included the info to their sites for Uluru Ochre so that people will be aware of it when ordering seeds in future.

I was hoping to apply this OSSI pledge to the around 30 varieties already released from my crosses, but I think it's too complicated since they are distributed now in lots of different outlets and so I will concentrate on future releases regarding this open source initiative.

Patrina

**carolyn137** · March 31, 2015

Patrina, I'm a bit confused on what you posted above and here's why.

The variety I'm talking about is the following:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Goose_Creek

Jimmy Williams applied for a patent on it claiming that it had an unusal sequnce of color ripening, on the inside, and more, I can try to find out that info if you want me to, and his patent application was refused.

The other question I have is as follows.

Is patenting going to stop anyone from using the germplasm for ANY Dwarf variety. I don't think so actually I know so since some of the dwarf germplasm kind of "escaped", as you know, and was used elsewhere. And it costs a lot of money to even submit the application.

Then who should get a patent anyway? The person who did the initial cross and could have followed it through to stability, or in the case of the development of many of the Dwarf varieties, someone does an initial cross and others make selections and grow it out to stability.

Sitting in back of me right now are Freda and Martha who help out here and Freda said that Steve Rascher, now deceased, but a well known producer of superb maple syrup, wanted to submit a patent for some innovation he had made but simply could not come up with the money to even submit the application.

Maybe I've missed the point here and if so, I aplogize, but I did want to raise the above issues.

Carolyn

**carolyn137** · March 31, 2015

Patrina, more info about Jimmy Williams and Goose Creek here in this link:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=12893

And while Mischka gave two links to his patent application, I didn't take the time to read them and I'm sure they are the ones I already knew.

Carolyn

loeb · March 31, 2015

I do understand the idea.. Reminds me about Copyleft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft

Uluru Ochre is on my wishlist.. so pretty.

KarenO · March 31, 2015

Very interesting, thank you. Bought it from Tania and looking forward to growing it this year and seeing what is does here. Very unique colour.
KarenO

greenthumbomaha · March 31, 2015

I have a question on OSSI, not this particular tomato. I'm not a breeder or anything close, and I do not have seeds of this variety. As a grower, what would be my responsibility to sharing tomatoes. Your definition includes derivatives. Could I give the tomato to a neighbor without a sticker? That "is" a form of seed transfer.

- Lisa

ddsack · April 1, 2015

Quote:

The idea is taken from Open Source software as a foil against the monopoly of the software giants and takes this idea in a slightly different direction - to encourage breeders of all sorts of plants, especially food, to place a new designation on what they breed as Open Source Seed which is to be shared without restrictions, no patents or intellectual property rights. It's not a legal commitment. It's an ethical commitment and one which I think most people here would agree with.

I have added the bolding in the quote from Patrina's initial post. I don't think it's meant as something that small hobby seed traders that exchange personal SASE type trades need to worry about -- they are already acting under the directive of exchanging seed freely.

I think it is meant for seed sellers, who do profit from sales of seed varieties created by someone else and who use printed seed envelopes where the designation can be added. How easy it would it be for large hybrid producing companies to just grab some of the interesting new OP varieties from these smaller companies, and with one minor further cross say it's now their brand new hybrid. If huge hybrid producing companies (who can afford it) then get patents, they are claiming ownership of someone else's basic work.

**Patrina_Pepperina** · April 1, 2015

Thanks for the link Carolyn, I will read it tomorrow.... it's been a LONG day here

Just a quick reply regarding some of the "why' of this issue I'll quote a few bits and pieces from Seminis and Monsanto sites, first from Seminis which is owned by Monsanto now:
Seminis

A comprehensive global database of detailed plant information

Our scientists have direct access to over 40 million marker-trait associations, which have been accumulated over the past decade from more than 630,000 hybrids taken from nearly 3,500 breeding pedigrees. And every year, we collect and analyze tens of millions of additional plant samples, which continually adds to our database of detailed genome data.

And from Monsanto:

Monsanto

In the process of learning how to engineer chemical and pest resistance into corn, researchers at Monsanto had learned to read and understand plant genomes—to tell the difference between the dog★★★★ germplasm and the gold. And they had some nifty technology that allowed them to predict whether a given cross would yield the traits they wanted.

The key was a technique called genetic marking. It maps the parts of a genome that might be associated with a given trait, even if that trait arises from multiple genes working in concert. Researchers identify and cross plants with traits they like and then run millions of samples from the hybrid—just bits of leaf, really—through a machine that can read more than 200,000 samples per week and map all the genes in a particular region of the plant’s chromosomes......

Also in 2005, Monsanto bought the world’s largest vegetable seed company, Seminis. Think of it as a wholesale supplier of germplasm........

Monsanto is still Monsanto. The company enforces stringent contracts for farmers who buy its produce seeds......

The Monsanto article is actually about the new vegetables they are breeding that are not GMO since many people are worried about 'Franken-foods'. The thing is they are always on the prowl for taking over seed companies and who knows how many will fall into their hands at some point in the future? No doubt the germplasm would go straight into their genome database to use for their exploits.

I really don't want anything I've bred to end up in their database, not that being associated with OSSI can actually prevent it, but at least it can raise awareness of the issues around something we all take for granted, growing and saving seeds!

Patrina

**Patrina_Pepperina** · April 1, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by loeb

I do understand the idea.. Reminds me about Copyleft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft

Yes indeed - I like that term

**Patrina_Pepperina** · April 1, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumbomaha

I have a question on OSSI, not this particular tomato. I'm not a breeder or anything close, and I do not have seeds of this variety. As a grower, what would be my responsibility to sharing tomatoes. Your definition includes derivatives. Could I give the tomato to a neighbor without a sticker? That "is" a form of seed transfer.

- Lisa

Absolutely 100% the fruit can be distributed as normal. But in the unlikely event your neighbour is a plant breeder it would be an opportunity to mention the Open Source Seed Initiative connection's ethical point, especially if he happened to work for the likes of Seminis/DeRuiter/Monsanto

Patrina

**Patrina_Pepperina** · April 2, 2015

Someone has kindly sent me a note to say that the colour of Uluru Ochre may already be out there in tomatoes, and they will investigate further this season, so stay tuned!

I watched the documentary "Open Sesame" again to get some statistics straight.

In 1901 the available varieties of beets totalled 288 and only 17 of these still exist today. Of course there may be newer varieties that have been developed since then, but still the former majority are lost.

And also in 1901 the available varieties of lettuce was 497, 36 of which still exist, and of 307 varieties of sweetcorn only 12 of which are still around today.

These figures are quoted from a Rural Advancement Foundation International estimate.

And also in 1901 thousands of heritage wheat varieties still existed that today are near extinction, quoted from a USDA Heritage Grain Conservancy estimate.

Luckily people are still breeding fruits, veggies, grains, herbs, flowers so that whatever biodiversity we still have can be maintained going forward. There's an interesting book by Carol Deppe - 'Breed your own vegetable varieties' - if anyone feels inclined to have a go with a wider scope than just tomatoes. The more breeders out there the better so that we can build back some of the diversity we've lost with the genes we still have available.

Patrina

March 30, 2015	#1
Patrina_Pepperina Cross Hemisphere Dwarf Project™ Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New South Wales, Australia Posts: 3,094	Uluru Ochre & the OSSI connection I'm hoping that it was mostly Tomatovillians who bought Uluru Ochre seeds from Tatiana and Remy who are both currently sold out, the 2 sources of its initial release. I would like to introduce a fairly recent initiative for open source seeds that I want to be associated with this new variety so I need to pass on that info here. The Open Source Seed Initiative was launched a year ago but established a couple years earlier by breeders, farmers, advocates of food sustainability etc under the leadership of people such as Irwin Goldman and Jack Kloppenburg from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. I heard about their ideas recently in the documentary about seeds called "Open Sesame" and it gripped my attention immediately! The idea is taken from Open Source software as a foil against the monopoly of the software giants and takes this idea in a slightly different direction - to encourage breeders of all sorts of plants, especially food, to place a new designation on what they breed as Open Source Seed which is to be shared without restrictions, no patents or intellectual property rights. It's not a legal commitment. It's an ethical commitment and one which I think most people here would agree with. Since Uluru Ochre is very unusual in its colouring and we think it is a previously unknown colour in tomatoes, I am keen that Uluru Ochre should always be shared or sold openly without restriction, meaning that if someone decided to use the germplasm in breeding and to then patent it, the result may mean that no further development could occur with this colour or other aspects from its thousands of genes, and maybe would prevent it being sold at all. I'm not sure to what extent this could occur, but shudder to think when we consider what monopolies can achieve. Apparently 90% of the varieties grown in the beginning of the 1900s are already lost, eg of around 388 varieties of beets in 1905 we now have around 17, something like that... I'm not direct quoting, just from memory. So I'm in the process of listing Uluru Ochre with the Open Source Seed Initiative and would like you to include something like the following on your seed packets when you share seed... OSSI pledged - osseeds.org Seeds to be shared, NOT patented. Always include this note when sharing. The FULL pledge actually reads: *The OSSI pledge* You have the freedom to use these OSSI seeds in any way you choose. In return, you pledge not to restrict others' use of these seeds or their derivatives by patents, licenses or other means, and to include this pledge with any transfer of these seeds or their derivatives. Personally I think it's too long unless you happen to have printed labels to whack onto the envelopes, something I want to think about further myself since I hope to apply the OSSI notification to all my future releases, and certainly for my own seed distribution it would be very handy to have small stick-on labels. I use smallish coin envelopes when distributing seeds. But anyhow, hopefully people would check out the website if it's listed on their seed packet to find out what OSSI means. Tatiana and Remy have included the info to their sites for Uluru Ochre so that people will be aware of it when ordering seeds in future. I was hoping to apply this OSSI pledge to the around 30 varieties already released from my crosses, but I think it's too complicated since they are distributed now in lots of different outlets and so I will concentrate on future releases regarding this open source initiative. Patrina __________________ Truth is colourful, not just black and white. PP: 2005

March 31, 2015	#2
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Patrina, I'm a bit confused on what you posted above and here's why. The variety I'm talking about is the following: http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Goose_Creek Jimmy Williams applied for a patent on it claiming that it had an unusal sequnce of color ripening, on the inside, and more, I can try to find out that info if you want me to, and his patent application was refused. The other question I have is as follows. Is patenting going to stop anyone from using the germplasm for ANY Dwarf variety. I don't think so actually I know so since some of the dwarf germplasm kind of "escaped", as you know, and was used elsewhere. And it costs a lot of money to even submit the application. Then who should get a patent anyway? The person who did the initial cross and could have followed it through to stability, or in the case of the development of many of the Dwarf varieties, someone does an initial cross and others make selections and grow it out to stability. Sitting in back of me right now are Freda and Martha who help out here and Freda said that Steve Rascher, now deceased, but a well known producer of superb maple syrup, wanted to submit a patent for some innovation he had made but simply could not come up with the money to even submit the application. Maybe I've missed the point here and if so, I aplogize, but I did want to raise the above issues. Carolyn __________________ Carolyn

March 31, 2015	#3
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Patrina, more info about Jimmy Williams and Goose Creek here in this link: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=12893 And while Mischka gave two links to his patent application, I didn't take the time to read them and I'm sure they are the ones I already knew. Carolyn __________________ Carolyn

April 1, 2015	#8
Patrina_Pepperina Cross Hemisphere Dwarf Project™ Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New South Wales, Australia Posts: 3,094	Thanks for the link Carolyn, I will read it tomorrow.... it's been a LONG day here Just a quick reply regarding some of the "why' of this issue I'll quote a few bits and pieces from Seminis and Monsanto sites, first from Seminis which is owned by Monsanto now: Seminis A comprehensive global database of detailed plant information Our scientists have direct access to over 40 million marker-trait associations, which have been accumulated over the past decade from more than 630,000 hybrids taken from nearly 3,500 breeding pedigrees. And every year, we collect and analyze tens of millions of additional plant samples, which continually adds to our database of detailed genome data. And from Monsanto: Monsanto In the process of learning how to engineer chemical and pest resistance into corn, researchers at Monsanto had learned to read and understand plant genomes—to tell the difference between the dog★★★★ germplasm and the gold. And they had some nifty technology that allowed them to predict whether a given cross would yield the traits they wanted. The key was a technique called genetic marking. It maps the parts of a genome that might be associated with a given trait, even if that trait arises from multiple genes working in concert. Researchers identify and cross plants with traits they like and then run millions of samples from the hybrid—just bits of leaf, really—through a machine that can read more than 200,000 samples per week and map all the genes in a particular region of the plant’s chromosomes...... Also in 2005, Monsanto bought the world’s largest vegetable seed company, Seminis. Think of it as a wholesale supplier of germplasm........ Monsanto is still Monsanto. The company enforces stringent contracts for farmers who buy its produce seeds...... The Monsanto article is actually about the new vegetables they are breeding that are not GMO since many people are worried about 'Franken-foods'. The thing is they are always on the prowl for taking over seed companies and who knows how many will fall into their hands at some point in the future? No doubt the germplasm would go straight into their genome database to use for their exploits. I really don't want anything I've bred to end up in their database, not that being associated with OSSI can actually prevent it, but at least it can raise awareness of the issues around something we all take for granted, growing and saving seeds! Patrina __________________ Truth is colourful, not just black and white. PP: 2005

April 2, 2015	#11
Patrina_Pepperina Cross Hemisphere Dwarf Project™ Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New South Wales, Australia Posts: 3,094	Someone has kindly sent me a note to say that the colour of Uluru Ochre may already be out there in tomatoes, and they will investigate further this season, so stay tuned! I watched the documentary "Open Sesame" again to get some statistics straight. In 1901 the available varieties of beets totalled 288 and only 17 of these still exist today. Of course there may be newer varieties that have been developed since then, but still the former majority are lost. And also in 1901 the available varieties of lettuce was 497, 36 of which still exist, and of 307 varieties of sweetcorn only 12 of which are still around today. These figures are quoted from a Rural Advancement Foundation International estimate. And also in 1901 thousands of heritage wheat varieties still existed that today are near extinction, quoted from a USDA Heritage Grain Conservancy estimate. Luckily people are still breeding fruits, veggies, grains, herbs, flowers so that whatever biodiversity we still have can be maintained going forward. There's an interesting book by Carol Deppe - 'Breed your own vegetable varieties' - if anyone feels inclined to have a go with a wider scope than just tomatoes. The more breeders out there the better so that we can build back some of the diversity we've lost with the genes we still have available. Patrina __________________ Truth is colourful, not just black and white. PP: 2005

March 31, 2015	#4
loeb Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Poland Posts: 251	I do understand the idea.. Reminds me about Copyleft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft Uluru Ochre is on my wishlist.. so pretty.

March 31, 2015	#5
KarenO Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 5,922	Very interesting, thank you. Bought it from Tania and looking forward to growing it this year and seeing what is does here. Very unique colour. KarenO

March 31, 2015	#6
greenthumbomaha Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Omaha Zone 5 Posts: 2,514	I have a question on OSSI, not this particular tomato. I'm not a breeder or anything close, and I do not have seeds of this variety. As a grower, what would be my responsibility to sharing tomatoes. Your definition includes derivatives. Could I give the tomato to a neighbor without a sticker? That "is" a form of seed transfer. - Lisa