new greenhouse, new growth curled

pecker88 · May 19, 2016

Tomato varieties, all started from seed around March 1st. Planted out starting April 1st, few plants per week until 20 April.

Kellogs Breakfast
Trust
Bella Rosa
Gregori Altai
Sun Gold
Marianna's Peace
Big Boy
New Big Dwarf

Several pepper varieties also, nothing crazy, green/red Bell, Jalapeno, Anaheim, ect... Started 15 Feb. from seed, planted out 1 April until 20 April, same time frame as toms.

Yukon gold Potatoes planted about 1 April.

Seems like after a few weeks of growing everything started going south.

A few plants I sprinkled some Fox Farm Happy Frog tom. & veg. granular about 3 weeks ago, testing to see if it was nut. deficiency. I fertilized everything with 1/2 strength fish emulsion 1 time about a week ago.

Soil is 1/2 city compost and 1/2 sandy loam top soil. Greenhouse is NOT heated, at night I roll down the sides. We've had some nights around 40 in mid-april, and again about a week ago. Got about 7" of rain in that time frame. I really backed off on watering in the last week. I have soaker hoses under mulch and the peppers esp. were getting too much water.

I just put 40% shade cloth over the GH. Daytime temps can reach 100 easily on days with calm winds.

Carrots, Radishes, Onions, Broccoli and Beans seem to be doing OK. They are planted on the opposite side of walkway, but soil makeup is exactly the same.

Any ideas? I'm starting to think herbicide reside in city compost. I called the University/County extension today and they had not heard of any reports of herb. damage from the city compost supply.

I'm lost and really upset considering my new setup.

Cole_Robbie · May 19, 2016

I had similar results one year from some bags of compost I purchased. I thought it was herbicide, but someone on here mentioned that if the compost had a minor element like copper that happened to be off the chart, then the plants would grow in a similar manner.

Another possibility is herbicide in the hay or straw you have down as mulch.

It's not good, whatever it is. Sorry for your misfortune.

zipcode · May 20, 2016

The plants are already quite nice and big. Did the new growth always look like this and then normalized?
Or did it just now start looking like this?

BigVanVader · May 20, 2016

The Ph being off can cause this as well. I planted some plants where a previous burn pile was last year w/o knowing and they looked like that. They eventually grew through it and produced (they were cherry tomatoes.) In the fall when pulling them up I saw the roots were in about 90% ash. Everyone was saying it was herbicide damage but it wasn't. I believe anything that severely stresses the roots can cause it. Have you tested the Ph? Coles comments are also a good possibility if you bought your straw from Lowes or somewhere like that.

pecker88 · May 20, 2016

Thanks for the replies everyone. The curling started long before I put down the straw; I just put that down about 5 days ago.

What's weird is that the Broccoli, Beans and Carrots seem to be OK so far.

Another factoid: I have a huge habanero plant in a 5 gal self watering container at the end of the GH, it is also showing twisted/wrinkled new leaves. It has had 0 contact with the compost and is planted in bagged pro mix.

The only common thing between all the curled plants is water. I know our well water is very high pH, if I rem. correctly, somewhere around 8.5-9.

BigVanVader · May 20, 2016

Ah, that could be it then, if so you can try lowering the ph to acceptable levels with white vinegar which is used in hydroponics sometimes to lower ph.

whoose · May 20, 2016

So did it ever get better? Was the production lower? What was your final guess to what the cause was?

pecker88 · May 20, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoose

So did it ever get better? Was the production lower? What was your final guess to what the cause was?

The pics in my first post above were just taken last night. So, this is the current status of my plants. Supposedly someone from the county extension is calling me back to sch. visit to look at the plants.

Ricky Shaw · May 20, 2016

Friend in the country has well water had much the same results twisted, curled and stunted, dead by July.

The pH was >8.0 and dissolved solids were 2800 ppm, at these levels I read there is a near total lock-out of nutrient uptake.

pecker88 · May 20, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky Shaw

Friend in the country has well water had much the same results twisted, curled and stunted, dead by July.

The pH was >8.0 and dissolved solids were 2800 ppm, at these levels I read there is a near total lock-out of nutrient uptake.

I found our water analysis report from 2013:

pH, at 19.5ºC: 8.4
Total Dissolved Solids (Calc), TDS: 629 mg/L

Ricky Shaw · May 20, 2016

I should mention he couldn't grow grass well either. In the Spring with rainfall the lawn looked good, but once he started watering off the well, it died no matter how much he watered.

Cole_Robbie · May 20, 2016

On the topic of PH, don't let anyone talk you into using battery acid as a PH down adjuster. It is sulphuric acid, and it works, and it is cheap. The catch is that under US labeling laws, it only needs to be 99% pure. The other 1% is likely heavy metals like lead or whatever toxic waste the company got paid to dispose of by mixing it into their product.

That's why you always see the fine print label "it is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling." No one is going to arrest you, but that law exists to deny you the right to sue.

Cole_Robbie · May 20, 2016

Yeah, that's way too high of a ph on the water. You can add a PH Down product to it. They are sold for hydroponics. The problem, though, is that you'll need a way to test the PH. Paper strips are the cheapest. The super-cheap electronic meters on amazon are a waste of money. A good electronic meter is going to run you $100-$200. I'd only trust Hannah or Blue Lab as brands. You also have to buy the calibrating solutions, and follow the instructions for use very carefully. The tip of the meter is never supposed to dry out; it always has to stay moist, or it will stop reading accurately.

pecker88 · May 20, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

Yeah, that's way too high of a ph on the water. You can add a PH Down product to it. They are sold for hydroponics. The problem, though, is that you'll need a way to test the PH. Paper strips are the cheapest. The super-cheap electronic meters on amazon are a waste of money. A good electronic meter is going to run you $100-$200. I'd only trust Hannah or Blue Lab as brands. You also have to buy the calibrating solutions, and follow the instructions for use very carefully. The tip of the meter is never supposed to dry out; it always has to stay moist, or it will stop reading accurately.

what a pain. I just setup all the valves and soaker hoses!
I'll only water a few plants with RO water (tests at 6.5 pH) for a few weeks and see if there is any difference.

greenthumbomaha · May 20, 2016

I live 30 miles from pecker88. My plants look like that this year too. I have had them outside in this cool weather at night, after the weeks of mid 70's. Pecker88, how long were they in the greenhouse and at what temp and what day/night did you set them out.

Second, did you pot up with the same mix for all? The same bag too?

In my situation I used different bags and mix, so it is hard to pinpoint the cause. I also have a neighbor next door that uses tru green. I'd be interested to know the lag time between herbicide exposure and visible damage at different ages of seedlings. Hopefully we can beat this.

As to the ph of the water (and soil) , I will pass on a comment from an old timer ...

Eastern Nebraska is all alkaline and clay, and we grow just fine here. I'd be hard pressed to argue against that point.

- Lisa

May 19, 2016	#1
pecker88 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 192	new greenhouse, new growth curled Tomato varieties, all started from seed around March 1st. Planted out starting April 1st, few plants per week until 20 April. Kellogs Breakfast Trust Bella Rosa Gregori Altai Sun Gold Marianna's Peace Big Boy New Big Dwarf Several pepper varieties also, nothing crazy, green/red Bell, Jalapeno, Anaheim, ect... Started 15 Feb. from seed, planted out 1 April until 20 April, same time frame as toms. Yukon gold Potatoes planted about 1 April. Seems like after a few weeks of growing everything started going south. A few plants I sprinkled some Fox Farm Happy Frog tom. & veg. granular about 3 weeks ago, testing to see if it was nut. deficiency. I fertilized everything with 1/2 strength fish emulsion 1 time about a week ago. Soil is 1/2 city compost and 1/2 sandy loam top soil. Greenhouse is NOT heated, at night I roll down the sides. We've had some nights around 40 in mid-april, and again about a week ago. Got about 7" of rain in that time frame. I really backed off on watering in the last week. I have soaker hoses under mulch and the peppers esp. were getting too much water. I just put 40% shade cloth over the GH. Daytime temps can reach 100 easily on days with calm winds. Carrots, Radishes, Onions, Broccoli and Beans seem to be doing OK. They are planted on the opposite side of walkway, but soil makeup is exactly the same. Any ideas? I'm starting to think herbicide reside in city compost. I called the University/County extension today and they had not heard of any reports of herb. damage from the city compost supply. I'm lost and really upset considering my new setup.

May 20, 2016	#7
whoose Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Bozeman, Montana Zone 6b Posts: 333	Out Come?? So did it ever get better? Was the production lower? What was your final guess to what the cause was?

May 19, 2016	#2
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	I had similar results one year from some bags of compost I purchased. I thought it was herbicide, but someone on here mentioned that if the compost had a minor element like copper that happened to be off the chart, then the plants would grow in a similar manner. Another possibility is herbicide in the hay or straw you have down as mulch. It's not good, whatever it is. Sorry for your misfortune.

May 20, 2016	#3
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	The plants are already quite nice and big. Did the new growth always look like this and then normalized? Or did it just now start looking like this?

May 20, 2016	#4
BigVanVader Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Greenville, South Carolina Posts: 3,099	The Ph being off can cause this as well. I planted some plants where a previous burn pile was last year w/o knowing and they looked like that. They eventually grew through it and produced (they were cherry tomatoes.) In the fall when pulling them up I saw the roots were in about 90% ash. Everyone was saying it was herbicide damage but it wasn't. I believe anything that severely stresses the roots can cause it. Have you tested the Ph? Coles comments are also a good possibility if you bought your straw from Lowes or somewhere like that.

May 20, 2016	#9
Ricky Shaw Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Zone 6a Denver North Metro Posts: 1,910	Friend in the country has well water had much the same results twisted, curled and stunted, dead by July. The pH was >8.0 and dissolved solids were 2800 ppm, at these levels I read there is a near total lock-out of nutrient uptake.

May 20, 2016	#15
greenthumbomaha Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Omaha Zone 5 Posts: 2,514	I live 30 miles from pecker88. My plants look like that this year too. I have had them outside in this cool weather at night, after the weeks of mid 70's. Pecker88, how long were they in the greenhouse and at what temp and what day/night did you set them out. Second, did you pot up with the same mix for all? The same bag too? In my situation I used different bags and mix, so it is hard to pinpoint the cause. I also have a neighbor next door that uses tru green. I'd be interested to know the lag time between herbicide exposure and visible damage at different ages of seedlings. Hopefully we can beat this. As to the ph of the water (and soil) , I will pass on a comment from an old timer ... Eastern Nebraska is all alkaline and clay, and we grow just fine here. I'd be hard pressed to argue against that point. - Lisa