Dwarfing Root stock

[carolyn137]

Someone elsewhere is asking me if one can use a dwarf tomato rootstock grafted to a normal indet or det top and dwarf the top part.

Anyone know if that would work b'c I sure don't, at least not with tomatoes. Apples, yes, but tomatoes?

[Worth1]

Carolyn tell them to graft the tomato to dwarf root stock and call it an apple.

Now you have me looking at short chill time apples for Texas.
Anna looks like a good one, now I need a pollinator.

Seriously I wish someone in the know would come up with something on this I would like to try it.8)

Worth

[Tom Wagner]

Carolyn,

if one can use a dwarf tomato rootstock grafted to a normal indet or det top and dwarf the top part?

I wasn't going to tackle this question since it was going to take a lot of research and that I would write too much attempting to address the rationale. But, Oh, well...

Definitions first. One tomato is selected for its roots, and this is called the stock or rootstock. The other tomato plant is selected for its stems, leaves, or fruits and is called the scion.


I am not sure I can adequately answer this question. Some of the research of dwarf rootstocks of tomatoes go back to over 50 years ago. Mainly;

·The effects of stocks upon scions are generated by the root system of the stock.

• Scion stem diameter and leaf length of the reciprocal grafts of dwarf and +(non dwarf) were shifted toward the dimensions of the stocks.
• I don't know if this means that a normal tomato vine grafted on a dwarf rootstock is shorter and stockier, or if the stem is thicker and the leaves shorter but still on a indeterminate growth nature. We need a photo to show this. More on this nature later on in this message

Some history and terms to clarify:


Currently used rootstocks are:
Resistant to Corky Root, Fusarium, Verticillium, Nematodes, and TMV


Rootstocks vary in their vegetative/generative characteristics


A generative rootstock gives a balanced plant type with strong trusses, easy fruit setting and fast maturing fruits

• Where vigor is needed, then a vegetative rootstock may be selected,
• but growing a crop into the winter a generative rootstock might be favored.
• Can a dwarf diminish vegetative growth while enhancing generative traits?
  

Often, grafting makes plants more tolerant to poor water quality (salinity) and tolerance to low temperature

There are significant effects of the rootstocks on the vegetative growth, earliness and fruit production of the different scions, but not on plant length or number of leaves or trusses. Does this mean that the dwarfing (plant length) is not effected?


Some commercial rootstocks and breeding lines can promote vegetative growth of all scions, but some delayed flowering of the scion by 6–7 days while others stimulated early flowering.

--------------------------------------------------------------

• What is the difference between isogenic lines of a variety that has both dwarf and normal indeterminate vine habits?
• The root growth in length and number of laterals produced was about 25 per cent more for non dwarf roots than dwarf roots.
• That would have a grafting effect on the yield and habits of a strong indeterminate, I would think.

The two most common rootstocks either have
1.very vigorous growth, or
2.more moderate increase in plant vigor
·seen in both above ground-ground and below-ground growth.

Summaries:

·grafted plants are more vigorous,
·they will produce a lot of vegetative growth at the expense of reproductive growth,
· too much foliage and not enough fruit, therefore..
·take steps to reduce plant vigor.
· leaf removal is one way to reduce plant vigor
· only 10 to 12 fully expanded leaves are needed
·allowing more leaves seems to suppress fruiting.
·To suppress the vigor of grafted plants, let them develop two leaders,
·double-leader system suppresses vigor
· thus taking off all the leaves below the lowest cluster with ripe fruit
·‘Maxifort’ rootstock a double leader is recommended.
· ‘Beaufort’ for a single leader plant...it is not as vigorous

I would best include a few things about apples to illustrate some of the contrasts of grafting ideals.

Mechanisms of rootstock/scion interactions in Apples.


Theories:


. There is a combination of anatomical and physiological factors that appear to be the cause of the dwarfing effect.

1.Anatomy - diameter of xylem vessels in dwarfing rootstocks(M9)
2. the xylem vessels are also smaller in diameter


The theory is that there is less water transport in trees on M9.

3.Nutrition - dwarfing rootstocks shift more carbohydrates to fruiting structures such as spurs and fruit and less to tree frame.



4. Water and mineral translocation - May be partial blockage at graft union affecting water and nutrient translocation.

5. Phytohormones - less auxin flow through bark of dwarf rootstock.


Much of what I have included in the above highlights are for talking points. But as usual for me, maybe I have made the complex simple, or the simple complex!

The research is needed (note to self) to cross a Maxifort with any dwarf tomato variety and self out the progenies for a dwarf habit, but enhance the vegetative aspects as well. At that juncture, one could make the grafts and prove, or disprove, the adventures of whatever concept is being explored. Maxifort is a hybrid, therefore some backcrosses of Dwarf X Maxifort back to Maxiforts selfs or hybird to get the Corky Root, Fusarium, Verticillium, Nematodes, and TMV tolerance.

Tom Wagner

[carolyn137]

The research is needed (note to self) to cross a Maxifort with any dwarf tomato variety and self out the progenies for a dwarf habit, but enhance the vegetative aspects as well. At that juncture, one could make the grafts and prove, or disprove, the adventures of whatever concept is being explored. Maxifort is a hybrid, therefore some backcrosses of Dwarf X Maxifort back to Maxiforts selfs or hybird to get the Corky Root, Fusarium, Verticillium, Nematodes, and TMV tolerance.

*****

Thanks ever so much Tom.

It's clear to me that there is no simple answer and that more work needs to be done re tomatoes.

I too didn't want to delve into this b'c I don't think the person actually even wanted to do the grafting, rather, it was just a question. But I don't the person well at all, so I said I'd try to find out for her.

I also don't think she knows about the many dwarf varieties that are currently available, let alone the exciting NEW dwarf varieties that are being genetically stabilized by folks in the Dwarf Project.

So I'll cut and paste what you wrote to answer her and see how it goes.

And since I know you had to go back quite a few years and fetch some info, again, I thank you.

[Tom Wagner]

• Grafting tomatoes could and should be used by organic farmers and conventional farmers.
• Vegetable grafting will/is increase/increasing due to the phaseout of methyl bromide.
• The use of grafted heirloom tomatoes can improve productivity and soilborne disease control.
• Heirloom tomato varieties (as a whole) are rather susceptible to an array of soilborne pathogens.
• When heirloom tomatoes are grafted onto resistant rootstocks, bacterial wilt (caused by Ralstonia solanacearum) problems can be decreased in both greenhouse and field plantings.
• Summary; benefits due to increased vigor and water use efficiency.

It's clear to me that there is no simple answer and that more work needs to be done re tomatoes.

Yes, Carolyn, there is a lot of work to be done yet on tomatoes, and grafting is but one of those areas. Esoterically, grafting tomatoes is largely understood only by those few people who have the necessary special knowledge or mysterious skills. If folks on this forum would just do the grafting of dwarf rootstock with indeterminate type tomato scions, the recondite will become reconcilable.

Just took a call on the phone from a doctoral student working with grafts of all types in tomatoes. Cary R. admitted to a lack of information on grafts using dwarf rootstocks. He also admitted to the heirloom grafts having too much top growth and it required valuable time to prune the vines down to manageable proportions. He liked the possible reduction of vegetative growth using dwarf rootstock that had bacterial wilt tolerance. Another (note to self) moment here.

Tom Wagner

[Worth1]

I searched around and found a bunch of high brow gubbeldeguch and came up with the same thing, needs more research, or at least thats what I thought I read.

Dumb Hillbilly,

Worth

[blackkrim]

I have a question, maybe though not related to grafting...I was pulling off dead leaves from my tomato plant, and accidentally broke off a good piece of plant. Well, I planted it and it's growing. I then broke off a few other pieces from other tomato plants, and they're growing. Will these plants grow? Will thet be normal tomato plants ?

[Lee]

Yep, you just cloned your plant. It will be identical to the parent. This even works
for Hybrids if you have more than one growing season a year....

Lee

[tuk50]

How does one go about connecting the graft? I have been thinking (ususally gets me in trouble) about trying this for a few years and ran across this thread. Do you think I could use super glue gel to connect the two... or the thin super glue? Or graft below soil level and wrap with scotch tape and use soil to hold in place. In any case it sounds like a good time of year to practice the skills needed so when spring comes the details may be worked out. I have Elfin, New Big Dwarf, and Red Robin dwarf seeds available and would like suggestions. I would like to graft a Green Zebra cross that I have grown out for about 5 years now it is a tennis ball size orange tomato that my family loves the taste of, but it doesn't have the disease resistant that the original Green Zebra has in my garden. I have a bunch of the GZ seeds from this years garden and will grow them out and practice on the grafting skills. One more question, when to graft. At the first true leaves or larger? thanks for any info or insight you may have for this project. 8)

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by tuk50

How does one go about connecting the graft? I have been thinking (usually gets me in trouble) about trying this for a few years and ran across this thread. Do you think I could use super glue gel to connect the two... or the thin super glue? Or graft below soil level and wrap with scotch tape and use soil to hold in place. In any case it sounds like a good time of year to practice the skills needed so when spring comes the details may be worked out. I have Elfin, New Big Dwarf, and Red Robin dwarf seeds available and would like suggestions. I would like to graft a Green Zebra cross that I have grown out for about 5 years now it is a tennis ball size orange tomato that my family loves the taste of, but it doesn't have the disease resistant that the original Green Zebra has in my garden. I have a bunch of the GZ seeds from this years garden and will grow them out and practice on the grafting skills. One more question, when to graft. At the first true leaves or larger? thanks for any info or insight you may have for this project. 8)

tuck50,
Here is a link I posted a while back on grafting.
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/ipm/greenhs/htms/Tomgraft.htm
Here is the thread.
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...light=grafting

Worth

[tuk50]

Thanks worth, that is a great site and answers most of the questions that I was wondering about. Did you try any yet? 8)

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by tuk50

Thanks worth, that is a great site and answers most of the questions that I was wondering about. Did you try any yet? 8)

Not yet but I am interested in the dwarfing root stock.

And maybe two or three different tomatoes on one plant just for the novelty of it.

Glad you liked the site.

Worth