Need help with Al's 5 1 1 mix! Not finding what I need!

[SharonRossy]

Hi Everyone,

I have been searching in Montreal for the pine bark fines and have not been successful. Need some help from anyone. I know Al is away. I have been searching for pine bark fines in the Montreal area. Nothing. Here's what I have found so far:

1. Medium Pine bark - but the bag is not see thru so I cannot determine except by feel the size. They feel bigger than 1/2".
2. Cacoa shell mulch
3. Hemlock mulch
4. Pine bark nuggets (again not visible and I'm thinking this is what I need)
5. Cedar mulch
6. ProMix BX with Mycrorrizae - 75% peat, perlite, vermiculite and dolomitic and calcite limestone with mycorrizae.
7. Fafard has a container mix - Coconut fiber, peat moss,and biosol compost.

I would greatly appreciate any feedback or help here. As I said, the pine nuggets and medium bark were not visible unless I ripped open a bag, which I wasnt' willing to do.By feel the nuggets might be a good bet. The hemlock seemed better, again not sure.

Thanks, Sharon:

[ArthurDent004]

I can't say about Montreal suppliers but I found the following items for Al's mix at my local Lowes and Home Depot.

Pine Bark Fines
http://www.lowes.com/pd_97675-66882-...3048087&rpp=48

Fafard 3 cu ft Peat Moss
http://www.lowes.com/pd_322730-10799...eat&facetInfo=

Continuous Release Fertilizer

http://www.lowes.com/pd_79838-446-10...zer&facetInfo=

I had a local garden store order the Coarse Perlite, 4 cubic foot bag shown at this link
http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/p.../seed-starting

Lime from Home Depot
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Soil-Doct...1#.UXF3Rcq2qyA

Myco Madness from
http://www.plantlightinghydroponics....oz-p-2639.html

Hope this gives some ideals for alternate suppliers.

[BennB]

I am certainly not a 5-1-1 pro.... I just mixed up my first batch a couple weeks ago to use this year (and I too found everything at Lowes and Home Depot - no one store had everything), but I work for a firm that does native plant restoration and I know a bit about mulch, so here are my 2 cents.

Pine bark is a very common mulch because pine forests grow in a lot of places and pine is a widely used commercial wood (and there is a lot of pine bark made as a byproduct). The main benefit of using composted pine bark is that it holds moisture well and it helps improve soils as it decomposes.

We specify bark mulch over wood chip mulch when we have drier or otherwise poor native soils. We specify uncomposted wood chip mulch when we have more moist native soils with more organic matter.

When we do specifications for planting mulch and want to use bark mulch, we generally specify "composted conifer bark mulch." In our part of the world, you can't find pine bark in bulk because there are no pine trees, but we have an abundance of fir trees and hemlock trees. I don' think the species of conifer is as important as the fact that the bark is at least lightly composted and has the correct particle size. Bark mulch usually comes as "fine" or "medium. I would say you want a "fine" bark mulch of any conifer species over a "medium" bark of the purported "correct" species, so if your hemlock mulch is the right size, I'd say use that with confidence!

Watch out...you do not want "pine bark fines." This is sold as a soil conditioner and is not the same as "fine pine bark" or "fine composted bark mulch". If you use this your 5-1-1 will be a gloppy mess.

The cedar mulch may also work if it is sufficiently composted, but a lot of time cedar mulch is sold in a more raw form. You can kind of tell by smelling the mulch, it should smell a bit like mushrooms or fungus, and if you rub it in your hand it should leave streaks. If it does not, it is not composted.

Also, you don't have to buy mulch it in opaque bags. Most areas have soil supply or landscape suppliers that sell composted bark mulch in bulk. You can go to the yard and see the pile before you buy (although most places only sell this in cubic yard quantities, so bring a pick up!

The ProMix is a good product. I potted up all my starts in ProMix HP with Mycrorrizae and plan to put these plants in 5-1-1 in 5 gallon buckets. The main downside of ProMix is it is about 5x to 8x more expensive as home mixed 5-1-1 and the BX does not drain like the 5-1-1 is suppose to do, which is why I went with the HP version.

I have not used the other products.

Good luck!

[ArthurDent004]

Looking on the Lowes website I see the following under pine bark mulch:

3 cu ft Natural Dark Brown Pine Bark Mulch
Evergreen 3 cu ft Natural Brown Nugget Pine Bark Mulch
Scotchman's Choice 3 cu ft All Natural Nugget Pine Bark Mulch

Did you use one of these or did you use something else?

[BennB]

I used "Evergreen Natural Dark Brown Pine Bark Mulch, 2 CF", about $3 per bag. I bought 12 bags (I used 5 for 5-1-1 and the rest for mulching some shrubs). Overall it seemed very consistent.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_92118-66882-...=#BVRRWidgetID

[ArthurDent004]

I haven't made any 5-1-1 mix yet. I recently made bought a bag of Evergreen 2 cu ft Organic Conditioner Commodity Soil and used Raybo's 3:2:1 formula. I made an adjustment to my mix because I used Coir, instead of Peat Moss. I made a second batch that included a second helping of perlite because the previous batch seemed too wet. I planted bare root strawberries in the containers. It will be interesting to see if they grow any differently.

[zeroma]

ProMix HP means? ProMix BX mean?

I was fortunate to be able to to buy 2 huge 60 pound bales of ProMix BX with Mycrorrizae a while back. It was lovely to work with when I started my potting up a few days ago.

I'm in the process of sewing up my own type of smart/grow bag out of inexpensive felt I bought at Jo Ann's Fabric Store. I'm hoping it works well.

[elight]

From what I can tell from other posts on various forums, the only difference between ProMix HP and ProMix BX is that HP has double the amount of perlite. Last year, I found some of the consumer products at a store, and called the company that makes ProMix to find out the exact composition (specifically the percent of perlite), and they were pretty helpful, in case you need to go that route.

[BennB]

The HP stands for high porosity. I have not endevored to do any formal tests but it seem to be pretty close to the 5-1-1.

[Sodak]

what is the original formula for 5 - 1 - 1?

[BennB]

There are a lot of threads on this with more discussion from those in the know, but it is basically:

5 parts fine bark mulch
1 part peat moss
1 part course perolite
Dolomitic lime to adjust the pH and add calcium and magnesium. About 1/3 cup per 6 gal mix
A slow release fertilizer with micronutrients per manufacturer instructions.

You need to mix it up and let it sit for a week or two to let the pH adjust.

[SharonRossy]

Ok, I have a question here. Are you saying the ProMix HP is the 5 1 1? Or do I need to add fine bark mulch to it. I have also found another Pro Mix - not to further confuse the discussion - called Pro Mix Vegetable and Herb OMRI. It has about 85% organic matter - humus. Honestly, I am a bit confused here. My local Home Hardware can order a product called All Treat Canada Red Pine Bark Mulch. I called them and they sent me a photo which looks pretty close to what I need for the fines. But if I can use the ProMix HP or the other one and add the mulch plus lime and fertilizer and possibly perlite, that would be much simpler than having to do the whole thing myself. Any thoughts hereÉ
Sharon

[BennB]

No, the ProMix is an already prepared mix that has similar drainage properties as the 5-1-1. The ProMix is not a component of the 5-1-1.

ProMix is a brand name. They have a lot of different product lines and various blends. The names seem to vary between the US and Canada and there are even variations like "promix hd-cc", which has a coir fiber base. So "ProMix HP" is a specific product supplied by one company that is a mix of peat and perilite that is pH balanced and ready to use. It looks like in Canada this is called "ProMix Ultimate All Purpose Mix".

The primary differences for me are:

1) cost. Promix HP is about $10 per cubic foot. You can make 5-1-1 for less than $3 a cubic foot. Not a big deal if you don't need a lot of it (I did).

2) Durability. A benefit of the 5-1-1 is that it is suppose to keep it's structure and drainage properties longer since the bark component breaks down slowly. I have no first hand data on that, but that seems to be the consensus.

So if you want easy and don't mind the added cost, I would go with the prepared ProMix HP or similar. If you do, add a good slow release complete fertilizer or fertilize often when you water.

[SharonRossy]

Thanks, that's what I thought. I do need a lot, so I have to decide. The other issue for me is physically being able to mix everything properly and get it into my containers. I'm going to check on the price for the pro mix. I've seen so many variations that I can't keep it straight. I have used a promix last year now that I think about it, but don't remember which one. Thanks. I'll be asking more questions I'm sure.

[BennB]

I mixed mine up in 5 gallon batches, measuring the parts with 1 gallon flower pot. Put it all in one bucket, pour it another 5 gallon bucket, and repeated a few times. All the components are light and although it took some time to mix up all 60 gallons I needed, but it was not difficult.