Odd shaped Black Brandywine

Adenn1 · February 25, 2006

Sorry for the big picture...the edit to resize does not seem to want to work.

These are the odd shaped fruit I got from one Black Brandywine plant that I purchased from a local nursery. While it had a decent taste...some were mostly seed and pulp inside...while others had more meat.

Will not grow again...as I found out too late how unstabel the variety is...

cthomato · February 25, 2006

You're not near the Limerick nuclear power plant are you? :wink: Probably not as that's a bit outside of Philly.

Thanks for the heads up. I've got some Black Brandywine seed and will now demote it to the 2nd string. Craig (nctomatoman) has come up with a stable version.

Chris

Adenn1 · February 25, 2006

Chris--funny you should mention the nuclear plant...I put down Philly as my general area. I actually live out in Montgomery county...about 10 miles from the plant.

Maybe I shouldn't blamed the variety...but the conditions

bully · February 26, 2006

My blk bwine were all pear shaped too.
like the ones on the bottom.
the ones on the top appear to be a fused blossom, a double pear, if you will..i had a lot like that too.

I have read elsewhere that the line isn't stable.

**carolyn137** · February 28, 2006

I don't think Craig has a stable BB b'c after he grew it the first time and got two different plants with two different fruits I don't think he grew it again, knowing it was unstable.

He said one plant had RL foliage and looked like Black from Tula and the other plant I think might have been PL and had fruits he described as being a bag of seeds.

But if it's still messed up one could just as soon get a PL with large fruits and an RL with weird seedy fruits.

I could be wrong but I've seen him post more than once about his experience with BB.

What he said he did stabilize was Taps, which has bugged me for years. Has to do with leaf form, tho, not the fruits.

cthomato · February 28, 2006

Carolyn - I thought I saw him respond somewhere (maybe GW) that he had a stable version. Someone had a long list of tomatoes and wanted opinions on what to grow. If Craig doesn't respond here, I'll try to dig it up. Then again, it could be the sign of early Alzheimer's.

cthomato · February 28, 2006

OK, I couldn't wait. I didn't find the thread I mentioned but found this one instead:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...212061932.html

I'm sorry if posting a thread to GW is a faux pas. I know we were discouraged at GW to post threads mentioning this or other "competing" sites.

bully · March 1, 2006

Quote:

I'm sorry if posting a thread to GW is a faux pas. I know we were discouraged at GW to post threads mentioning this or other "competing" sites

I have seen no evidence of that kind of heavy handed behavior here at tomatoville

If a person is blatantly advertising goods and services then that is another issue

**carolyn137** · March 1, 2006

(I saved seed from the potato leaf plant and now have a pretty stable medium sized purple with good productivity and flavor. The big problem is that this is my selection - anyone else could have gotten something different....)

Is what Craig said.

And he carefully pointed out that it was his own selection and that others getting seed could no doubt still see the instability.

If I had made a selection from the PL one it would have been stable as well, since we're not talking about genetic flip flop here as we are, or I was, when talking about the variety Taps.

Remember that Craig also pointed out that he got seeds from TGS when it was first offered.

When one reads thru the SSE listings for Black Brandywine for the several years it's been out there, one often sees the same comments made here as to wrong fruit forms, leaves etc. It seems to be luck of the draw as to which seeds are sown.

After all, this was a variety that arose in the growing fields of my NOT favorite wholesale firm Seeds by Design in CA, no one knows what the black parent was and there are no doubt many possibilities based on what they were growing that summer, and so it's clear that they released it, and I think TGS was the first to offer it, before it was stabilized.

When you do that, each person growing it out is stabilizing, or destabilizing it as the case may be, in other words creating their own genetic line, since not all who grow it distinguish between wrong foliage and wrong fruit form, and there's then no consistency in seeds that are passed on to others.

cthomato · March 1, 2006

OK, so Craig has a stable version of something derived from BB but it is not really a stable version of BB. In essence, there really is no one true BB because it is unstable and not be successfully stabilized in a consistent form that retains the characteristics of the original (albeit unstable) version.

Could what Craig has be the black parent or a very similar version?

**carolyn137** · March 1, 2006

I'm sorry, but I guess I didn't explain what I wanted to say very clearly.

No one knows the extent to which SBD tried to dehybridize the initial hybrid between Brandywine and an unknown black parent.

So no one would know if they had the black parent b'c that information was never given and indeed perhaps was never known as I tried to explain above.

What Craig had was a large black on a PL plant, which is what it was said to be. His other plant was RL and had small blackish fruits that were a bag of seeds the way he's related it to me.

He saves seeds from fruits of that PL plant with large black fruits and the next time he grows it he gets a PL plant with large black fruits.

Is it what the initial hybrid looked like?

Is that one of the selections SBD found in the F2 and F3, if they carried it that far?

There is no way to know.

When I was dehybridizing what became OTV Brandywine I saw the PL with large red fruits that we wanted at the F2, the F3 and the F4 , and of course at each F I was selecting only for the large PL red, and each time I was growing out many plants. But there were other colors and other leaf forms as well that showed up at the earlier F's.

So Craig has a PL large black that he's saved seeds from and it grows true. What F is it? No way to know.

Please also remember that Craig has limited space and only usually grows one plant of each variety for his own garden.

And the largest point here being that as Craig said in the quote above, what he got is not necessarily what anyone else would get. Again, b'c of the range of pheno and genotypes that can be seen at different F's until ALL seeds planted, and **many** plants looked at, and ALL give the same plant/leaf form/fruit, then only at that time is the selection considered to be a fully genetically dehybridized OP.

Has that helped?

cthomato · March 3, 2006

Carolyn - so there really is no such thing as Black Brandywine because of the premature release by an undisciplined seed vendor. There are just various growers who have come up with stable plants that have some lineage to an unstable ancestor. And of those stable varieties, many could have been cross pollenated with yet another variety (assuming that not everyone bags their blossoms).

Craig did not say his stablized plant had the Brandywine shape. Just that they bore medium sized black fruit and he liked the taste.

I did not know Craig usually only grows one plant of each variety in his garden. I saw the thread on his method for mass seed starting (4000 plants!, I am in awe). He must supply a good size network of growers.

Catntree · March 5, 2006

Boy, that pic looks a lot like Japanese Trefele Black...a variety I like, but others sometimes find too unique. Excellent paste tomato.

I thought Brandywine Black too mushy. I'm wondering If I should grow it out again, but all three plants had the same fruit....beefsteak shape, mushy, so-so taste.

February 25, 2006	#1
Adenn1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 559	Odd shaped Black Brandywine Sorry for the big picture...the edit to resize does not seem to want to work. These are the odd shaped fruit I got from one Black Brandywine plant that I purchased from a local nursery. While it had a decent taste...some were mostly seed and pulp inside...while others had more meat. Will not grow again...as I found out too late how unstabel the variety is...

February 28, 2006	#5
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	I don't think Craig has a stable BB b'c after he grew it the first time and got two different plants with two different fruits I don't think he grew it again, knowing it was unstable. He said one plant had RL foliage and looked like Black from Tula and the other plant I think might have been PL and had fruits he described as being a bag of seeds. But if it's still messed up one could just as soon get a PL with large fruits and an RL with weird seedy fruits. I could be wrong but I've seen him post more than once about his experience with BB. What he said he did stabilize was Taps, which has bugged me for years. Has to do with leaf form, tho, not the fruits. __________________ Carolyn

March 1, 2006	#9
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	(I saved seed from the potato leaf plant and now have a pretty stable medium sized purple with good productivity and flavor. The big problem is that this is my selection - anyone else could have gotten something different....) Is what Craig said. And he carefully pointed out that it was his own selection and that others getting seed could no doubt still see the instability. If I had made a selection from the PL one it would have been stable as well, since we're not talking about genetic flip flop here as we are, or I was, when talking about the variety Taps. Remember that Craig also pointed out that he got seeds from TGS when it was first offered. When one reads thru the SSE listings for Black Brandywine for the several years it's been out there, one often sees the same comments made here as to wrong fruit forms, leaves etc. It seems to be luck of the draw as to which seeds are sown. After all, this was a variety that arose in the growing fields of my NOT favorite wholesale firm Seeds by Design in CA, no one knows what the black parent was and there are no doubt many possibilities based on what they were growing that summer, and so it's clear that they released it, and I think TGS was the first to offer it, before it was stabilized. When you do that, each person growing it out is stabilizing, or destabilizing it as the case may be, in other words creating their own genetic line, since not all who grow it distinguish between wrong foliage and wrong fruit form, and there's then no consistency in seeds that are passed on to others. __________________ Carolyn

March 1, 2006	#11
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	I'm sorry, but I guess I didn't explain what I wanted to say very clearly. No one knows the extent to which SBD tried to dehybridize the initial hybrid between Brandywine and an unknown black parent. So no one would know if they had the black parent b'c that information was never given and indeed perhaps was never known as I tried to explain above. What Craig had was a large black on a PL plant, which is what it was said to be. His other plant was RL and had small blackish fruits that were a bag of seeds the way he's related it to me. He saves seeds from fruits of that PL plant with large black fruits and the next time he grows it he gets a PL plant with large black fruits. Is it what the initial hybrid looked like? Is that one of the selections SBD found in the F2 and F3, if they carried it that far? There is no way to know. When I was dehybridizing what became OTV Brandywine I saw the PL with large red fruits that we wanted at the F2, the F3 and the F4 , and of course at each F I was selecting only for the large PL red, and each time I was growing out many plants. But there were other colors and other leaf forms as well that showed up at the earlier F's. So Craig has a PL large black that he's saved seeds from and it grows true. What F is it? No way to know. Please also remember that Craig has limited space and only usually grows one plant of each variety for his own garden. And the largest point here being that as Craig said in the quote above, what he got is not necessarily what anyone else would get. Again, b'c of the range of pheno and genotypes that can be seen at different F's until ALL seeds planted, and many plants looked at, and ALL give the same plant/leaf form/fruit, then only at that time is the selection considered to be a fully genetically dehybridized OP. Has that helped? __________________ Carolyn

March 5, 2006	#13
Catntree Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Maine Posts: 177	Boy, that pic looks a lot like Japanese Trefele Black...a variety I like, but others sometimes find too unique. Excellent paste tomato. I thought Brandywine Black too mushy. I'm wondering If I should grow it out again, but all three plants had the same fruit....beefsteak shape, mushy, so-so taste. __________________ Zone 4/5

February 25, 2006	#2
cthomato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: SoCal z10 Posts: 96	You're not near the Limerick nuclear power plant are you? :wink: Probably not as that's a bit outside of Philly. Thanks for the heads up. I've got some Black Brandywine seed and will now demote it to the 2nd string. Craig (nctomatoman) has come up with a stable version. Chris

February 26, 2006	#4
bully Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: S.E. MI Posts: 794	My blk bwine were all pear shaped too. like the ones on the bottom. the ones on the top appear to be a fused blossom, a double pear, if you will..i had a lot like that too. I have read elsewhere that the line isn't stable.

March 3, 2006	#12
cthomato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: SoCal z10 Posts: 96	Carolyn - so there really is no such thing as Black Brandywine because of the premature release by an undisciplined seed vendor. There are just various growers who have come up with stable plants that have some lineage to an unstable ancestor. And of those stable varieties, many could have been cross pollenated with yet another variety (assuming that not everyone bags their blossoms). Craig did not say his stablized plant had the Brandywine shape. Just that they bore medium sized black fruit and he liked the taste. I did not know Craig usually only grows one plant of each variety in his garden. I saw the thread on his method for mass seed starting (4000 plants!, I am in awe). He must supply a good size network of growers.