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Historical background information for varieties handed down from bygone days.

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Old December 26, 2009   #1
mensplace
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Default Old versus new Rutgers

I have read that the original Rutgers had a far better flavor than the newer release. Could any of you share your own experiences in comparing the two? If the older is better, then I would love to do a side by side comparison of the two, but if there isn't enough difference in taste, no need to bother finding the original. Thanks
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Old December 26, 2009   #2
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There should only be "one" of any particular variety. If something changes or is improved, it should get a different name, because it is a different variety. So if there is any difference between Rutgers when released in the mid 1930s and Rutgers as available now, there has been crossing involved - and it is no longer Rutgers. As released as a stabilized open pollinated variety, it should be the same today as it was then.
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Old December 26, 2009   #3
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There are basically two strains of Rutgers, an indeterminate one that isn't too rambling (1928 release) and a later (1943) fully determinate release. They are both about the same, fruitwise...

The determinate one sometimes is called Rutgers Improved. There's also a Rutgers Select name floating around that seems to be either one of the two official releases depending on the source...TGS has Rutgers Select being the older 1928 release.

I've seen some references calling the original the determinate and the later release the indeterminate...flip-flopping them.
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Old December 27, 2009   #4
carolyn137
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http://www.njfarmfresh.rutgers.edu/W...gersTomato.htm

Here's the history of Rutger's from Rutger's itself. I always thought that it was released in 1928 myself ( see my last paragraph), but it wasn't named and released until 1934 ( need to click on the blue link)

In any given SSE Yearbook there can be up to 10-12 Rutger's variants listed, such as:

Rutgers
Rutgers F
Rutgers Improved
Rutgers PS-R
Rutgers Select
Rutgers VF
Rutgers VFA

I once asked Linda at TGS the difference between her two Rutgers listings and she said 2 days. She lists the VFA one which is not the original as well as Rutgers Select.

Many different companies made selections from Rutgers, here's one example from the NCSU Cultivar list:

Rutgers 8828 - Breeder: Corneli Seed Co., St. Louis. Parentage: selected out of Rutgers. Characteristics: earlier, larger fruit and more productive than Rutgers. Resistance: tolerant of fusarium wilt. Adaptation: full season tomato areas. Corneli Catalog no. 15. 1951.


it's my understanding that one of the earliest selections made was indet but as released it's been variously called determinate, semi-determinate, semi-indeterminate, but I'v not seen anyone mention taste differences in terms of the various selections made.

We grew it on the farm back in the 40's and I remember it as a good tasting variety, high yield, blemish free fruits, very much like the varieties New Yorker, Valiant, Marion and others that we grew at the same time.

One wee anecdote. In trying to track down Dr Oved Schifriss, the breeder of Big Boy F1 who went from Burpee to Rutgers I ended up talking to two Prof at Rutgers and one of them told me that he had recently had to clean out the office of a faculty member who had recently passed away and there he found the original certificate from 1928 that documented that first cross of the variety JTD ( seeds still available) and Marglobe ( seeds available) made by the Campbell Soup Company . It was Schermerhorn of the NJ Experimental Station ( Rutgers) who genetically stabilized the last selection which went on to be released in 1934.
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Old December 27, 2009   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
but I've not seen anyone mention taste differences in terms of the various selections made.
I think that reference to flavor came from FEDCO: 4057TO Rutgers Tomato OG
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Old December 27, 2009   #6
carolyn137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensplace View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
but I've not seen anyone mention taste differences in terms of the various selections made.
I think that reference to flavor came from FEDCO: 4057TO Rutgers Tomato OG
it could well have and I think remembering that they also say theirs is indeterminate, but what was released in 1934 was not.

Since I don't download the Fedco site would it be possible for you to cut and paste here the description for their Rutger's listing?

When we see that we can try to determine what version of Rutger's they're selling as to them claiming that the taste is better than, well, I don't know what the taste is better than b/c I don't know which of the other Rutgers versions they've grown and tasted all in the same season to make that claim

.
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Old December 27, 2009   #7
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In 2008, and again in 2009 (from same '08 seed pack), I have grown the Rutgers Select variety with very good success. Abundant fruit, resistant to blemishing of any kind, and a satisfactory taste. They seemed to max-out with fruit size like a baseball.

The hybridization and numerous varieties of tomatoes available can be mind-boggling. In the end, however, it will be one's soil quality and fertility, along with the luck of good weather during the growing season, that will make most any tomato plant productive, tasty and worthy of trying in a subsequent year.

I have my favorites every year as they have proven themselves to be "happy" in the environment here where I grow (6,840 ft. elevation). Likewise, every year I will try for the first time one plant of about 3 or 4 varities new to my garden. It is always a trial-and-error process. Success, occasional failure, and the anxious anticipation to get out there and greet the new gardening year using the memory-bank of past experiences.

Mastering tomatoes.....is only for the skilled, and the patient. Just think of all the friends and neighbors who never seem to "get it".....no matter what we suggest they do to make a difference in their next season.
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Old December 27, 2009   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post

Since I don't download the Fedco site would it be possible for you to cut and paste here the description for their Rutger's listing?

When we see that we can try to determine what version of Rutger's they're selling as to them claiming that the taste is better than, well, I don't know what the taste is better than b/c I don't know which of the other Rutgers versions they've grown and tasted all in the same season to make that claim

.
From the FEDCO Tomato Seed Site:
"4057TO Rutgers Tomato OG (75 days) Open-pollinated. Ind. Two varieties are called Rutgers. We sell the original strain of this famous New Jersey tomato, developed by Campbell’s Soup Co. in 1928 as a cross between Marglobe and JTD. When Rutgers University “refined” the variety in 1943, they took out some of the vininess but also some of the flavor. Our taste tests confirm that the original indeterminate strain is better. Long considered an outstanding slicing, cooking and canning tomato, the medium-sized 5–8 oz. unblemished deep oblate fruits with rich red interior and pleasing texture have that great old-time flavor. Resistant to F1, V1, ASC and GLS. OT-certified. "
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Old December 27, 2009   #9
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[quote=mensplace;151449]
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
From the FEDCO Tomato Seed Site:
"4057TO Rutgers Tomato OG (75 days) Open-pollinated. Ind. Two varieties are called Rutgers. We sell the original strain of this famous New Jersey tomato, developed by Campbell’s Soup Co. in 1928 as a cross between Marglobe and JTD. When Rutgers University “refined” the variety in 1943, they took out some of the vininess but also some of the flavor. Our taste tests confirm that the original indeterminate strain is better. Long considered an outstanding slicing, cooking and canning tomato, the medium-sized 5–8 oz. unblemished deep oblate fruits with rich red interior and pleasing texture have that great old-time flavor. Resistant to F1, V1, ASC and GLS. OT-certified. "
Thanks.

OK, you can see that several facts they present are wrong.

The cross was made in 1928 as you can see from the link I gave above to Rutgers which outlined what happened when.

It wasn't in 1943 that it was refined, it was in 1934 and it wasn't refines, it was deemed genetically stable to release, also from that link from Rutgers. And the flavor wasn't taken out of anything in 1943 for it was just the stabilization of the selection they decided to go with from the cross made in 1928.

Note that the original Rutgers was not V,F,A.GLS as this one is so noted. I listed a VFA in my list above.

Actually the GLS gene wasn't even know back then, tolerance to grey leaf spot , and as you can see from the link below the GLS gene appears in more modern, mostly F1 hybrids

http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.corne...matoTable.html

Note that they said there are two varieties named Rutgers, but I listed what, maybe 8 in my list above, and there are more than that.

And I did remember correctly that others have said that Fedco said theirs was indet, but that's not what was released in 1934. As I said above some refer to it as det, others as semi-det and still others as semi-inde, take your pick, but I think the original was det. The impetus of the original cross was to develop a variety that was better than Earliana and that one is det. These were all developed as commercial varieties and det or semi-det were best for the commercial fields b'c they were compact.

If I go back and read now the link I gave with the article from Rutgers I don't think the 1934 original release was VFA b'c back then they didn't have the genes to breed in that had those tolerances as I recall, maybe F, the one serotype of Fusarium though.

Hope that helps.
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Old December 27, 2009   #10
dice
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Looking at the picture on page 2 of this scan of a 1934
newsletter, the original looks indeterminate to me:

http://www.njfarmfresh.rutgers.edu/d...atorelease.pdf

(And the 1943 reselection would have been the determinate
version.)
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Old December 27, 2009   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dice View Post
Looking at the picture on page 2 of this scan of a 1934
newsletter, the original looks indeterminate to me:

http://www.njfarmfresh.rutgers.edu/d...atorelease.pdf

(And the 1943 reselection would have been the determinate
version.)
Dice, I looked at that picture myself but Just couldn't tell b/c I don't know if it was one of the selections or what they ended up releasing in 1934 and I couldn't tell how close the plants were planted.

And it is 1934 as the article notes, not 1943, and it occurred to me after I went out to the LR that it could be the case that Fedco flipped the 1934 date to 1943 b'c I think everywhere I've looked the date of 1934 is given.

I didn't come back to sugggest that the dates were flipped b' I just HAD to finish reading this great medieval murder mystery to find out who the murderer was. My guess was wrong.

Both parents are indeterminate, that's Marglobe and JTD, so I don't know how the genetics played out in terms of how many selections they made at each generation and how many of those selections they pursued. All I'll say is that if the cross was done in 1928 that's pretty quick to come up with stable OP. it's taken me longer than that to dehybridize an F1 hybrid to the OP state, but yes, sometimes shorter as with Ramapo. It just depends on the traits being selected for.

I hadn't remembered the plant habit of JTD so went to Victory Seeds where I knew Mike listed it. And chuckled again as I read the blurb b'c JTD ( John Thomas Dorrance) was a Cornell grad and he chose the red and white color scheme of Cornell for his Campbell soup cans. I chuckled b'c I'm also a Cornell grad and I'd forgotten that piece of trivia.
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Old December 27, 2009   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post

Both parents are indeterminate, that's Marglobe and JTD, so I don't know how the genetics played out in terms of how many selections they made at each generation and how many of those selections they pursued.
I think some references have Marglobe as determinate - Victory Seeds [ http://www.victoryseeds.com/catalog/...to/tomato.html ], for example.
If so, then a selection for determinate could've been made at the F2
when crossing J.T.D. and Marglobe.

P.S. I've grown a Rutgers that was determinate to the point of almost being a dwarf patio looking thing. The leaves were even puckered but not exactly what I would call rugose, just pillowed a bit, and the plant never got over 30 inches tall before terminating its shoots in flower buds.
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Old December 28, 2009   #13
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I make no claim that my impression from a photo that does
not show the whole plant is somehow the final word on
whether the original Rutgers was indeterminate or determinate.
I simply see more branches that look like that on indeterminate
(and semi-determinate) plants than I do on determinate plants.

The plant in the photo looks sprawled, too (grown without
stake or other support).
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Old December 28, 2009   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis View Post
I think some references have Marglobe as determinate - Victory Seeds [ http://www.victoryseeds.com/catalog/...to/tomato.html ], for example.
If so, then a selection for determinate could've been made at the F2
when crossing J.T.D. and Marglobe.

P.S. I've grown a Rutgers that was determinate to the point of almost being a dwarf patio looking thing. The leaves were even puckered but not exactly what I would call rugose, just pillowed a bit, and the plant never got over 30 inches tall before terminating its shoots in flower buds.
I think Marglobe is as bad as Rutgers in terms of data having to do with plant habit.

When I do a Google search on Marglobe I can find some sites saying indet and some saying det.And just as with Rutgers there have been several different versions/selections of Marglobe such as:

Marglobe Improved VF
Marglobe Meaty
Marglobe Select
Marglobe Supreme F
Marglobe White Flowered

So when someone is referring to just Marglobe, are they referring to the original one, one of the selections or whatever?

I'd compare it to the situation where lots of folks grow Brandywine and then ask if they have the Sudduth strain and who knows b'c most seed companies have no idea of what strain they have. With that long listing for Brandywine in the SSE Yearbook for sure there are many who list the Sudduth/Quisenberry strain, without knowing that that's what they grew.
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Old December 28, 2009   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
I'd compare it to the situation where lots of folks grow Brandywine and then ask if they have the Sudduth strain and who knows b'c most seed companies have no idea of what strain they have.
For sure. And don't get me started on Brandywine variables. LOL!
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