Tomatoville® Gardening Forums


Notices

Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 2, 2006   #16
carolyn137
Moderator Emeritus
 
carolyn137's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
Default

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...322292.html?11

Above is a link to a thread at GW where Tom's varieties are being discussed, as initiated by him in a newer thread.

There's another one similar to the one posted here, but that one has more input here, while the one I linked to was not posted here.

I think there's some material for thought re who retains ownership rights to varieties, should there be recompense for private breeders, etc.

And some of this relates to those of you involved in developing new varieties I would think.
__________________
Carolyn
carolyn137 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 28, 2007   #17
mouse
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: usa
Posts: 25
Default

For those asking about database for breeding:

Peditree: Pedigree Database Analysis and Visualization for Breeding and Science

R. van Berloo, and R. C. B. Hutten

From the Laboratory of Plant Breeding, Wageningen University and Research Centre, P.O. Box 386, NL-6700 AJ Wageningen, The Netherlands Address correspondence to R. van Berloo at the address above, or e-mail: ralph.vanberloo@wur.nl .

Journal of Heredity Advance Access originally published online on April 13, 2005
Journal of Heredity 2005 96(4):465-468; doi:10.1093/jhered/esi059

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi.../full/96/4/465

free full text

This one is an excellent program for potatoes. Wish something like this existed for tomatoes, as well !!
mouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 11, 2008   #18
PNW_D
Tomatovillian™
 
PNW_D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: West Coast, Canada
Posts: 960
Default

Here's one of Tom's I'm growing ......

Black Prince x Cherokee Purple F2

Tom, what should I be looking for in the F2?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BP x CP new.jpg (1.01 MB, 51 views)
__________________
D.
PNW_D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1, 2008   #19
Tom Wagner
Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator
 
Tom Wagner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204
Posts: 1,157
Default

Quote:
Black Prince x Cherokee Purple F2

Tom, what should I be looking for in the F2?
I have only two plants of this F-2 population out this year, so my segregation and selection process will be very limited this grow out season. Always another.

I think anything would be a save for another go-around. Depending on how many plants you have, one could lay out a list of descriptors for each plant, and then prioritize those you like best. I think the smoky colors would be the obvious selection criteria followed by flavors. Several more rounds of selfing will be required to "set" the parameters.

One reason I don't have more of my segregants out is that no one wanted to sample my varieties this year much.

Tom
Tom Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1, 2008   #20
PNW_D
Tomatovillian™
 
PNW_D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: West Coast, Canada
Posts: 960
Default

Thank you for checking in Tom, two plants here as well .... blossoms on top are from plant on the right - seems to have a somewhat blue tinge ........ although the plant on the left looks like it may have the larger fruit.

Will keep you posted.

Happy Canada Day!!





__________________
D.
PNW_D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1, 2008   #21
Tom Wagner
Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator
 
Tom Wagner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204
Posts: 1,157
Default

Thanks for the pictures of the F2 of (Black Prince x Cherokee Purple) tomatoes. The way the anthers are curling away from the stigma is quite indicative of the larger fruit potential.

I had four plants left of this F-2 family. These are plants from a 2-6-08 sow date, transplanted once back around the first of March in two by three inch pots. The plants didn't have to be left in the pots so long but I had no place to go with them so I left them to semi-hibernate in a tough love sad situation. They didn't look so hot, being about 20 inches tall and blooming with some difficulty. This progeny was but one of hundreds of other lines suffering similar distress. Those who can, produce fruits in these small pots and I will harvest those with the understanding that earliness and smaller fruits usually predominate.

I selected a plant that I liked best of these four to go into a late field planting. I , too, look for flower types to predict better the prototype that I want. This is bottleneck genetic selection at its extreme, but for some reason, the serendipitous happenstance carries some merit. What I will be looking for is what I get rather than what I may wish. I rather like to select segregations from plants that suffer for 4 months in a cramped pot. The plants almost died a number of times, but I think the adversity of this time left in the pot too long will pay dividends in the future. The plants will bounce back nicely from past experience.

I put in 25 plants today of wide ranging segregating potential. I used a hand held drill with a 3 inch wide auger and dug holes about two feet deep in a sultan sandy clay loam. I backfilled with a mix of goodies, including all organic materials such as composted tree trimmings, chicken manure, greensand, alfalfa meal, blood meal, kelp meal, cottonseed meal, rock potash, mycorrhizals, humic shale, worm castings, peat moss, vermiculite, perlite, dolomite lime, plus stuff I can't remember. All of this was planted on wheat stubble mowed down prematurely, with no till. About 15 inches of the plant was buried. Drip line was placed along the 25 different pedigreed plants. Later, organic alfalfa hay will be positioned to protect the plants as they grow. A single bamboo pole will be shoved into the ground to tie up the main leader, and the rest of the plant will grow out over the hay.

Contingency crosses of the 25 plants planted today and the 25 planted two days ago will be planned sometime later this month.

Tom Wagner
Tom Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 2, 2008   #22
Tom Wagner
Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator
 
Tom Wagner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204
Posts: 1,157
Default

Tomatoes planted outdoors exactly two months ago are finally growing and blooming well after a long wait. I am just minutes from Seattle.

As to the F-2 (Black Prince X Cherokee Purple) plant of the first of May planting, I was able to cross flowers of it with pollen from Black Prince and Cherokee Purple today. These two backcrosses will allow me to pull out traits respectively regardless of the phenotype of the F-2 plant.

I made just a few crosses today, around 70 tomato combos. Tomorrow will be crossing 100 or so potato crosses.
Decent weather now, low of 51, high of 75. Showers on the way.
Tom Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26, 2008   #23
PNW_D
Tomatovillian™
 
PNW_D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: West Coast, Canada
Posts: 960
Default

Thought you might like to see fruit set to date - Whoa!!





Another week into summer, and the tomatoes are really starting to take off re fruit load. A few of note, pics taken this a.m.


Tom Wagner's Black Prince X Cherokee Purple F2 - look at the (anticipated) size of those tomatoes on plant 1 - lots of catfacing unfortunately. All seem to be setting at the top of the plant. The top pic shows plant 2 from the same cross - notice how much smoother these fruit are - should be interesting to see (and taste) final results.

p.s.: click on pics for close ups 8)
__________________
D.
PNW_D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26, 2008   #24
Tom Wagner
Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator
 
Tom Wagner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204
Posts: 1,157
Default

Quote:
Tom Wagner's Black Prince X Cherokee Purple F2 - look at the (anticipated) size of those tomatoes on plant 1 - lots of catfacing unfortunately. All seem to be setting at the top of the plant. The top pic shows plant 2 from the same cross - notice how much smoother these fruit are...
Those pictures sure shows the fallacies of thinking that just saving the seed to the F-2 or later filials is all that is necessary to format another good clone (cultivar) of tomato. High numbers and/or luck are/is commonly required to best the ancestral traits. The catfacing line will generate more of the same.

I found in my 2x3 inch potted tomatoes of the same Black Prince X Cherokee Purple F2, has produced one plant that is early and set fruit, one with a perfect shape and the smoky brown coloring that I want. That F-3 seed will be sent next week to a southern clime to produce the F-4 seed for me to start here next spring. I still have to harvest my backcrosses of the F-2 plant in the field.

Thanks for the closeups to be viewed.

Tom Wagner
Tom Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26, 2008   #25
cottonpicker
Tomatovillian™
 
cottonpicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SE PA..near Valley Forge
Posts: 839
Default

Lordy Mercy, man........ 121 X's!!!!! Are you a glutton for punishment?? ....lol...... some verrry interesting crosses there and a considerable amount of record keeping!! Looking forward to progress report later on.
d'you think Cross #3 might give a Candy Stripe (red/white)?
F1??? #4 looks very interesting also since I LOVE BOTH SunGold & Jubilee. Great work... GOOD luck!!!!!!
__________________
"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause".
Victor Hugo
cottonpicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26, 2008   #26
Tom Wagner
Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator
 
Tom Wagner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204
Posts: 1,157
Default

5 -YELLOW CURRANT ---APPLE GIRL

93 -NORDIC GREEN ---WV 700

93 -NORDIC GREEN ---WV 700

128. BLACK BRANDYWINE X GREEN ZEBRA

When I listed 121 crosses almost two years ago, many more hybrids have been made. Case in point; I re-listing listing four hybrids made in '06 (see above) now in a four way hybrid with the seed soon to be harvested. Actually, it is a 6 way hybrid, but never mind.

F-1 (#5 -YELLOW CURRANT ---APPLE GIRL) X(#93 -NORDIC GREEN ---WV 700)

CROSSED TO:

F-1 of (#93 -NORDIC GREEN ---WV 700) X(#128. BLACK BRANDYWINE X GREEN ZEBRA)

As soon as I harvest the seed, I will sow some to get a few plants growing vigorously as the expected fall epidemic of Late Blight once again occurs. I will have a good number of seedlings outdoors in four inch pots to catch the Late Blight inoculation. Once I find the LB resistant lines in the segregation, I will save those plants to bring indoors to finish setting a single fruit. Those F-2 seeds will be evaluated for further segregation for fruit color and LB resistance for the summer/fall season of '09. I have grown the WV 700 several generations here in the PNW to isolate Late Blight resistance in this particular clone. I am wanting to transfer this tolerance etc., to a greater diversity of tomato types. Along with this ability, I am looking for earliness, firm fruit, frost tolerance, green flesh, stripes, black brandywine types, cherry types, slicers, yellows, woollies, bi colors, pinks, reds, etc. All of that out of the four way cross. I will try to keep some of the lines that have little spades as leaves.

One of the plots I have this year consists of over 350 clones of tomatoes. Each of those single plants per clones has one or more crosses on them. The permutations are something like 350 X 350 - 350 counting reciprocals. If I could humanly make all the possible crosses it would number 122,150 crosses. I hope to have as few as 1,000 crosses since even that takes a long to time to extract the seed. As I make hundreds and hundreds of potato crosses, this becomes a rather full load for me to complete tasks.

[quote] d'you think Cross #3 might give a Candy Stripe (red/white)?[/QUOTE

3 -SUN GOLD OP ---MATCHMAKER
No. This cross gave me both red and gold seedlings. The F-2 seedlings which were red as F-1's came out 100% red as F-2's. The gold F-1's are segregating gold and red.

BTW. I can only get pink stripes on a white tomato, never red stripes on a white tomato. I can get lots of white stripes on a white tomato but it is hard to see those!


4 -SUN GOLD OP ---JUBILEE

Nice large salad size/large cherry golds as F-1's are the ones I am saving seed from and regrowing.

Tom Wagner
Tom Wagner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27, 2008   #27
PNW_D
Tomatovillian™
 
PNW_D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: West Coast, Canada
Posts: 960
Default



Here's the final word for Black Prince x Cherokee Purple -these are 2nd generation fruit - saved seed will be F3. Much later than I had hoped, but a nice productive plant once it got going and fairly healthy too. My taste test notes indicate smooth pleasant flavour on the sweet side with not a lot of juice. Didn't use my ruler, but squares on table cover are 3/4 inch. Not a truly fair taste evaulation, as these were picked green and ripened indoors.

I did not save seed from the catfaced fruit from plant 2, as I did not want to continue this line - Tom Wagner advised the catfacing would continue into future generations. Notice this is a red/black fruit - so yellow skin dominates over the pink/black of Cherokee Purple.
__________________
D.
PNW_D is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:12 AM.


★ Tomatoville® is a registered trademark of Commerce Holdings, LLC ★ All Content ©2022 Commerce Holdings, LLC ★