Little game for breeders

nicollas · October 25, 2015

Can you give the name of an available tomato cultivar that combine the most phenotypically expressed (fruits, leaves, plant habits,...) recessive genes ?

Could lead to interesting discussions

bower · October 25, 2015

well... I've heard that there is a cultivar "Black Sea Man" which is determinate, but so far all seed sources I've tried have been indeterminates.
If the determinate version really exists it would have these recessive traits:
- sp
- potato leaf
- gf
- clear skin (assuming a pink black )
- large fruit (relatively - beefsteak type)
- early
- cool weather tolerant

I guess you could increase the determinate traits by crossing with a yellow to get a gwr.
And breeding in a tangerine gene to get tangerine-yellow-gwr.

travis · October 25, 2015

Tigerette (dwarf), striped, bicolor, plum, rugose, determinate, chartreuse foliage (with multiple light green leaf genes).

Ricky Shaw · October 25, 2015

If Tomatoville had a yearbook, travis would be voted 'Most Likely To Be On Jeopardy'.

**carolyn137** · October 25, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by bower

well... I've heard that there is a cultivar "Black Sea Man" which is determinate, but so far all seed sources I've tried have been indeterminates.
If the determinate version really exists it would have these recessive traits:
- sp
- potato leaf
- gf
- clear skin (assuming a pink black )
- large fruit (relatively - beefsteak type)
- early
- cool weather tolerant

I guess you could increase the determinate traits by crossing with a yellow to get a gwr.
And breeding in a tangerine gene to get tangerine-yellow-gwr.

Yes, there is a variety called Black Sea Man and I know it very well. It was one of many varieties that Marie Danilenko in Moscow sent to SSE. She was their contact there and at the time SSE sent me several that she sent for me to trial them.

And yes, it should be determinate.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Black_Sea_Man

If you look at the seed sources , I don't know how many you tried, but Tania herself is selling seeds for it and no doubt det as she said it was, and I agree.

But when I looked at Sandhill Preservation for instance it says indet.

Here's what I think might be happenening based on another vareity I had experience with,

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/G...b=General_Info

You can also pull up Green Grape, no original mentioned.

Yes, it was supposed to be indet, but when I grew it out here where I am now about 16 yo ago it was det and Tom also found det plants for it in the NEtherlands at Kees Sahin's tomato exhibition.

I was asked to do a dog and pony show in CA at a large nursery, at the timeTom was living in Bakersfield and he drove down to meet me and sat at the same desk where I was autographing my book and answering questions.

He brought twoplants he said were indet. I carelly kept with me on the plane ride back east, I planted them out and they were DET. So do I blame AA for doing something to those plants?Nope.

I think there is what I call flip flop with some varieties and certain genes and includes flip flopping between DET and IND. I don't know the exact gene designations and have no intention of going to the TGRC to find them.

The same thing happens with the variety Fish Lake Oxheart with regard to epidermis color and I had one variety where the flip flop was between RL and PL. Save seeds from the PL, sow them and you get plants that are either PL or RL. same thing if you save seeds from the RL

Then there's Kazachka, a fave black cherry of mine

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/K...b=General_Info

Andrey in Belarus sent me the seeds. Put out several plants, some have mini beefsteaks, some have round cherries, save seeds for beefs and you get both, save seeds from round cherries and you get both.

And Andrey confirmed for me that he was getting the same.

So I believe in flip flopping of some tomato varieties and some genes and have noted which ones I've seen flip flop.

Hope that helps.

Carolyn

**carolyn137** · October 25, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky Shaw

If Tomatoville had a yearbook, travis would be voted 'Most Likely To Be On Jeopardy'.

I do think some of us older retired folks who have been growing tomato varieties for many decades such as Bill and myself and a few more I can think of, could give Bill a run for his money on at least Jeopardy.

Carolyn, and I get to submit the questions to Jeopardy. <G>

ChrisK · October 25, 2015

NSL187099 (LA2513): a, c, d, gf, gs, h, marm, mc, r, wf, y

Ricky Shaw · October 25, 2015

Quote:

I do think some of us older retired folks who have been growing tomato varieties for many decades such as Bill and myself and a few more I can think of, could give Bill a run for his money on at least Jeopardy.

Carolyn, and I get to submit the questions to Jeopardy. <G>

I'm thinking in tomato circles this is talking smack.

**carolyn137** · October 25, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky Shaw

I'm thinking in tomato circles this is talking smack.

My Google isn't Googling, hope to get it fixed this week, but I'd like to know what talking smack means b/c I've never heard that before. Maybe I got too old too soon or as my brother was wont to say........"I forgot to remember".

Carolyn

Ricky Shaw · October 25, 2015

Bravado with a touch of taunt, most often humorous, like "Bring it on Dude, I got you covered."

Worth1 · October 25, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

My Google isn't Googling, hope to get it fixed this week, but I'd like to know what talking smack means b/c I've never heard that before. Maybe I got too old too soon or as my brother was wont to say........"I forgot to remember".

Carolyn

Carolyn I wouldn't go as far as saying you are talking smack but it could lead to it.

Talking smack.
Here are some examples.
You couldn't whip your way out of a wet paper bag.
You wouldn't know a good tomato if it fell out of the sky and hit you in the head.
You couldn't grow a tomato even if you had Carolyn137 helping you.
The dog pound just called they have your wife locked up again.

It can also refer to someone bragging and being better than someone else as boxers do.
Muhammad Ali pretty much perfected smack talking in the world of boxing.
Wiki says it came from the 90's but this is hog wash I have heard the term since the early 70's.
It may very well come from reference of someone babbling while on heroin which is also known as smack.
But I have no proof of this.

Worth

Runescape · October 25, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worth1

You couldn't grow a tomato even if you had Carolyn137 helping you.

nicollas · October 26, 2015

@ChrisK This list is impressive but the accession is no longer available (and should not be grown for food as it is a very slow growing one)

A bunch of recessive hiding behind a trait (fruit size, etc) doesnt count if they can't be named

ChrisK · October 26, 2015

There are plenty of people that have this accession and it used to be offered by Sampleseedshop (not any more?).

Yes, it's not exactly a good eating tomato...but I don't remember that being a prerequisite in your post. ;-)

October 25, 2015	#1
nicollas Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: France Posts: 142	Little game for breeders Can you give the name of an available tomato cultivar that combine the most phenotypically expressed (fruits, leaves, plant habits,...) recessive genes ? Could lead to interesting discussions

October 25, 2015	#7
ChrisK Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,448	NSL187099 (LA2513): a, c, d, gf, gs, h, marm, mc, r, wf, y __________________ Blog: chriskafer.wordpress.com Ignorance more frequently begets knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. --Charles Darwin Last edited by ChrisK; October 25, 2015 at 12:04 PM.

October 26, 2015	#14
ChrisK Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,448	There are plenty of people that have this accession and it used to be offered by Sampleseedshop (not any more?). Yes, it's not exactly a good eating tomato...but I don't remember that being a prerequisite in your post. ;-) __________________ Blog: chriskafer.wordpress.com Ignorance more frequently begets knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. --Charles Darwin

October 25, 2015	#2
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,793	well... I've heard that there is a cultivar "Black Sea Man" which is determinate, but so far all seed sources I've tried have been indeterminates. If the determinate version really exists it would have these recessive traits: - sp - potato leaf - gf - clear skin (assuming a pink black ) - large fruit (relatively - beefsteak type) - early - cool weather tolerant I guess you could increase the determinate traits by crossing with a yellow to get a gwr. And breeding in a tangerine gene to get tangerine-yellow-gwr.

October 25, 2015	#3
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	Tigerette (dwarf), striped, bicolor, plum, rugose, determinate, chartreuse foliage (with multiple light green leaf genes).

October 25, 2015	#4
Ricky Shaw Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Zone 6a Denver North Metro Posts: 1,910	If Tomatoville had a yearbook, travis would be voted 'Most Likely To Be On Jeopardy'.