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Old August 27, 2015   #16
FredB
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Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
Fred posted:


Responding to one of Carolyn's comments, I have also seen red-fruited plants show up in the F2 and later generations of Sungold. This means that one of the parents is a red tomato and the other is an orange tomato with the dominant B gene for orange color. See the link below from Frogsleap Farm for information on the genetics of tomato color.


&&&&&&

No, it doesn't mean that one of the parents ( complete genome) is a red tomato, S . Pimpinellifoium has been used in the breeding of many cherry tomatoes since pimp has a geneS) for the flat truss type that is typical for so many cherries.

So in breeding Sungold F1, for sure they are breeding in just the gene(s)( associated with the flat truss) but also some associated pigment gene(s) that wentalong for the ride.

And Travis spoke topimp in an earlier post here as well.

So no, S pimp was never one parent with the complete genome being involved.

Carolyn
Carolyn -

To clarify, I think that some of the supersweet hybrid cherry tomatoes have Solanum pimpinellifolium as one of the parents in the F1. I read about this about 20 years ago, but I can't find the reference now. I think they were referring to Sweet 100 Hybrid, the first of the supersweet cherries. However, this may also be the case for some of the newer supersweets. For instance, I'm pretty sure Johnny's Jasper Hybrid gets its dark red color and Septoria resistance from a pimpinellifolium parent in the F1.

With respect to Sungold Hybrid, it was bred by a Japanese company and apparently they never published how it was derived. At least I couldn't find any account in English. Based on what I see in the F2 generation, I think that both parents were probably S. lycopersicum, but at least one of of them must have had something exotic in its ancestry. As you mentioned, the long flat trusses of fruits may have come from pimpinellifolium. I don't know where the orange color came from. I tried crossing S. lycopersicum with S. cheesmaniae and S. galapagense, both of which are orange, but in both cases the F1 was nothing like Sungold.

Fred

Last edited by FredB; August 27, 2015 at 09:50 PM. Reason: Fixed a couple of typos; corrected spelling of cheesmaniae
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Old August 27, 2015   #17
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S. Habrochaites was one of the parents used to produce Sungold. No, it is not a pure habrochaites, it was many generations removed but Habrochaites was one of the parents.
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Old August 27, 2015   #18
FredB
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Do you have a link to a story on the origins of Sungold? I can't find anything when I google it. I can't even find the link to the Japanese company that bred it. It seems like a lot of this type of information just hangs around on the internet for a few years and then vanishes.

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Old August 27, 2015   #19
carolyn137
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Do you have a link to a story on the origins of Sungold? I can't find anything when I google it. I can't even find the link to the Japanese company that bred it. It seems like a lot of this type of information just hangs around on the internet for a few years and then vanishes.

Fred
Fred, just Google who bred Sungold F1 and the Tokita Seed Co in japan comes up right away. Along with many references to many threads here at Tville about the F1.

And now about proprietary info for hybrids, a link to Mark McCaslin, who has a Ph.D in plant breeding, please his )2 about proprietary info.

http://frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/20...eding-101.html

Darrel I know very few hybrids where all the genetic inputs are stated, well I do know some of the earliest hybrids where there were only two parents so could you please share with us how you found out that it was S habrochaites that was a parental input and knowing Tokita or even Sakata, another excellent Japanese breeding co, I doubt Tokita was your source of info,

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Old August 27, 2015   #20
FredB
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Looking at the TGRC website, some of the S. cheesmaniae accessions look a lot like Sungold. Maybe I was unlucky and picked the wrong cheesmaniae accession. Next year I'll try crossing a couple of the TGRC cheesmaniae accessions with a red cherry tomato.

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Images/LA0529-fruit.jpg
http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Images/LA1407-fruit.jpg

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Old August 28, 2015   #21
carolyn137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredB View Post
Looking at the TGRC website, some of the S. cheesmaniae accessions look a lot like Sungold. Maybe I was unlucky and picked the wrong cheesmaniae accession. Next year I'll try crossing a couple of the TGRC cheesmaniae accessions with a red cherry tomato.

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Images/LA0529-fruit.jpg
http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Images/LA1407-fruit.jpg

Fred
Fred, I don't know you very well, as you know, but I was looking at a few of your past posts and saw you also had some PI ones.

PI ones can be accessed from the PC GRIN, after submitting an application to document experience in breeding tomatoes and reasons why you want those accessions before being approved. Documentation was not necessary in the past, but there was significant abuse of the PC GRIN so that's what happeded

Some PI ones have also been listed in the annual SSE YEarbooks as well, I suppose with the online version, those for SSE members only.

But I've never seen the LA ones from the TGRC listed anywhere. So I'm curious to know if to get the two you mentioned you also had to submit documentation as well. And yes, there are several here at Tville who do have access to some TGRC requested one.

And I mention about the TGRC ones since they are NOT accessible to just anyone as somefolks think.

About S. cheesmanii ( both major and minor variants)

Several years ago Amy Goldman was visiting the Galapagos islands and I asked her if she could bring back to me some seeds for cheesmanii. Aside from pimpinellifolium it's the only other one of the wild species that is edible and I wanted to try it. I was not at all interested in its salt tolerance.

How Amy got them through customs I don't know, but she sent me a box of fruits that were RED so I knew I didn'thave cheesmanii. I called the TGRC and talked with Dr. Chatelet and knowing which island they came from he was able to tell me that it was probably a stable interspecies cross, not a true pimp and it was named Sara's Galapagos by Amy and I love that variety more than you know.

Lastly, yes, S cheesmanii LOOKS like a small Sungold and gold, not the oranage that Sungold fruits are when ripe, but I do know several who have tasted Cheesmanii, and while yes, edible, but no one praised thetaste.

I've been posting IP, but I remembered it should be IPK which are ones sourced from the German Seed Bank at Gartersleben,

Just looked again in the yellow/orange section of my 2015 SSE Yearbook and there are six IPK ones listed, all cherries or smaller, and only two people said anything about taste, that accession was from the Republic of Georgia.

And onward we go.

Hope the above helps just a bit,

Carolyn
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Old August 28, 2015   #22
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How do I know Habrochaites is in the background of Sungold? I've grown:

S. Peruvianum
S. Chilense
S. Arcanum
S. Pennellii
S. Habrochaites
S. Lycopersicoides
S. Neorickii
S. Cheesmaniae
S. Galapagense
S. Pimpinellifolium

Most of them I have as multiple lines. The one thing that is striking is growing Sungold side by side with the wild species. One thing stands out right away. The leaf structure, plant architecture, and leaf odor of Sungold are a dead ringer for S. Habrochaites LA1777 or LA2175. The only one of the wild species that smells like Sungold is S. Habrochaites.
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Old August 29, 2015   #23
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Have you tested some F1 between LA1777 and tomatoes during your breeding projects ?
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Old August 29, 2015   #24
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Yes, I have grown 1 F1 of LA1777 and I have grown about 50 of the S. Habrochaites introgression lines from TGRC. LA3969 is a very interesting line! Dig around on the net if you want to find out why.

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/hirsutum-ILs.pdf
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Old August 29, 2015   #25
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Have you noticed similarities with sungold in the F1 ? I guess LA3969 is good for cold tolerance.
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Old August 29, 2015   #26
carolyn137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
How do I know Habrochaites is in the background of Sungold? I've grown:

S. Peruvianum
S. Chilense
S. Arcanum
S. Pennellii
S. Habrochaites
S. Lycopersicoides
S. Neorickii
S. Cheesmaniae
S. Galapagense
S. Pimpinellifolium

Most of them I have as multiple lines. The one thing that is striking is growing Sungold side by side with the wild species. One thing stands out right away. The leaf structure, plant architecture, and leaf odor of Sungold are a dead ringer for S. Habrochaites LA1777 or LA2175. The only one of the wild species that smells like Sungold is S. Habrochaites.
Now I do remember that you had mentioned that before but since I'm one of the persons who is SSN ( sungold scent negative) it would be no problem to me.

Do you know what happened to Keith's Sunlucky, since last I knew some thought that Sungold F1 taste was in some way linked to what some smell of the foliage and apparently he was able to link the two, but I know nothing more.

Carolyn
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Old August 29, 2015   #27
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The characteristic foliage smell in SunGold (and SunSugar) is definitely heritable. There are likely multiple genes associated with this foliage smell and also for fruit taste. In advanced filial generations with crosses to SunGold and SunSugar, I don't see a tight association between fruit flavor and foliage smell, so doubt of many of the genes associated with these two traits are tightly linked. Having said that, the best stable line I have that was derived from such crosses has both the characteristic smell and the sweet, fruity flavor of the SunSugar parent.
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Old August 29, 2015   #28
Fusion_power
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Odor and flavor are not linked.

Sweetness and flavor are linked with exclusion so it is very difficult to stabilize a high flavor high sugar line derived from Sungold. However, I have one Sunlucky line and Keith has 2 that are good enough to be released. I'm waiting on him to decide to let them out to the world.
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Old August 29, 2015   #29
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To my nose, Sungold foliage smells fruity, but S. habrochaites smells herbal. Carolyn - I have occasionally noticed Sungold plants that lack the typical smell, so maybe you were just unlucky in the plant you sniffed.

I ran across a website (I think it was a small Canadian seed company) that said that Gardener's Delight was one of the parents of Sungold. Unfortunately, I can't re-find the site, but I did find a site mentioning that Gardener's Delight is a parent of Sweet 100. Both of these would make sense, since Gardener's Delight is a very sweet cherry tomato with long trusses. It also cracks easily, like Sungold.

http://www.fedcoseeds.com/seeds/?item=4109

Fred
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Old August 29, 2015   #30
carolyn137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
Odor and flavor are not linked.

Sweetness and flavor are linked with exclusion so it is very difficult to stabilize a high flavor high sugar line derived from Sungold. However, I have one Sunlucky line and Keith has 2 that are good enough to be released. I'm waiting on him to decide to let them out to the world.
Darrel, perhaps some of us should not be equating scent with flavor b'c I think most of us would agree that flavor is much more complex , genetically, than is sweetness.

So let's leave that subject, at least for now.

Thanks for the updates on Sunlucky and yes, it is Keith's call b'c he's the one who sent you and early F of that as I recall.

Keith's wife's parents live in Raleigh not far from Craig and Keith hand delivered a Sunlucky to Craig and I have no idea if he ever did anything with it.Just for those who might not know Sungold was crossed initially with Lucky Cross ( a gold/red bicolor) that came from an accidental X pollination in craig's garden.

I was going to link to Tania's page for Lucky Cross but her website is not loading for me right now.

But I know that that cross was between Brandywine and what he called an experimental variety called Tad/ Tad wasn't IMO experimental. Tad Smith had made a three way cross, sent seeds to Craig and I think myself, craig had no room to do growouts, I did, and it was important b'c Tad had said that there was a 1/64 chance of getting what he wanted. I got lucky and found it in the first 12 plants I put out and sent the seeds to both Tad and Craig. Tad always planned to up size it, he had a Ph.D in plant breeding, but never did/

Tad used to breed some tomatoes as F1's and send them to craig and myself and when those F1 seeds were gone,no way did I have the room to get F2 plants out there and work with them.

Carolyn
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