Why do I cross tomatoes and talk about it?

[Tom Wagner]

As a new moderator of this Crosstalk forum, I will have to introduce my self a bit more. I will have to answer questions about why I cross tomatoes. What do I hope to achieve? I will have to address your questions and observations. Make me talk! Be courteous and I will return the favor.

[Patrina_Pepperina]

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

As a new moderator of this Crosstalk forum, I will have to introduce my self a bit more. I will have to answer questions about why I cross tomatoes. What do I hope to achieve? I will have to address your questions and observations. Make me talk! Be courteous and I will return the favor.

Tom, what a great invitation! I would like to know why you started crossing tomatoes in the first place Was it for fun? And did you start making crosses first with tomatoes or potatoes?

My very first cross was in my second season of growing tomatoes, and my only motivation was to see if I could do it or not. I enjoyed the whole process so much that I've continued to see if I can still do it every season since then :wink:

Do you find it fun too? Or does it lose that aspect when you're doing hundreds of crosses each year as you do?

Patrina

[dokutaaguriin]

Hi Tom,
i hope you have the time to answer all of our questions....
In your years of breeding have you ever focused on breeding for sweetness. SUgar brix, from my understanding, just measures the dissolved sugars and does not give an accurate reading of sweetness. However, if we were to use sugar brix as a means to measure sweetness what has been the sweetest tomato that you have bred? Also, is there a theoretical Sugar Brix limit to tomatoes?
I ask these questions because of my familiarity with Japanese hybrid tomatoes. The ad copies for those hybrids usually list the sugar brix (range). In addition, many places that sell tomatoes online will grade their tomatoes according to sugar brix. The higher the brix the more expensive the tomato.
(Would you like list of Japanese hybrids for your Compendium of tomatoes? I can go through theTakii and Sakata catalogues that I have around the house quite quickly, others I will have to search on the net.)
Thanks,
Jeff

[Tom Wagner]

Tom, what a great invitation! I would like to know why you started crossing tomatoes in the first place.('')
Laughing Was it for fun? And did you start making crosses first with tomatoes or potatoes?

Re-telling the story of why I started crossing tomatoes is like condensing many stories..some funny, some cultural, some personal, but all intertwined.

Witnessing the world around me, crosses and accidental crosses were everywhere. Hybrid Big Boy tomato was a new cross to us in the early 1950's. The potato leaf, pink German tomato brought over from Germany by my Great Grandmother Becker from Graben, Germany in 1888 was still planted at home. I wanted to do the seed saving from tomatoes. The German tomato was easy to recognize each spring because of the potato leaf. When I asked my grandparents (4) why some of the seedlings had regular leaves instead of potato leaves, they shrugged their shoulders and said "Probably crossed" and when the vines started to produce, they were red and much larger than the typical 2-3 inch German tomatoes. I saved the seed. I grew some potato leaf types the next year.

I told this story before, but bear with me. When I was saving seed from the Sioux tomato in 1953, I noticed that many of the fruits were cracked. I managed to find a few plants that had fruits that were less cracked, but I told my dad that it was time to bring in a new bull for the tomatoes. He knew what I meant, it was time to start crossing. I knew that those accidental crosses happened, but how am I going to do this? Tomatoes aren't corn where you wave a tassel over the tomato flowers and recite Manx words of regeneration! I knew that with corn silk you had to get the pollen on them before they got dusted naturally. How to get tomato pollen, a comedy of errors! How to transfer pollen? I've got fingers, yeah. How to mark the flowers; oh, yes, my sister's pigtail ribbons!

What was my obsession with crosses? I remember about the same time of making tomato crosses, that we had a chance to visit a neighbor, Alley Dorssom, who never bought or used a tractor on his farm. He bred workhorses in a way that reminded me how my Grandfather Kaighin bred mules. Now Alley had this Palomino Stallion that was the envy of all the boys my age. You've got to realize that this was when the TV show "The Lone Ranger was on (1949-1957). Silver was his white horse while Tonto had "Scout" a painted Palomino. I liked to play the Indian in the Cowboys and Indians game with other boys. Anyway, Alley had this workhorse mare with this painted filly foal from the Palomino stud. My brother and I paid $40 the next day for "Nell" when our dad approved. Crosses have been my life and I thought Nell was unique. Bareback riding like an Indian.
My Great Grandmother Emma Kuhnert used to ride ponies in the late 1860's right up close to passenger trains going through the farm in Kansas. She and her twin brother Paul would ride near naked just to scare the passengers into thinking they were Indians. She and her brother were dark complexioned Silesian Germans and tanned to the extreme, and stories were written in eastern newspapers about frightened ticket holders traveling through Old Doniphan. This was near the site of the 1804 Lewis and Clark Expedition camp near an extinct Kanza Indian village on Independence Creek.

Tom Wagner

[Tom Wagner]

..hope you have the time to answer all of our questions....
In your years of breeding have you ever focused on breeding for sweetness?

"If I was a hopeless tomato breeder, I apologize."
"If I were a hopeless tomato breeder, I would never apologize."

I don't have the official Brix measuring tools but I've got a mouth on me!('')

I've had some conversations with another tomato breeder and we exchanged some ideas on how to get more sweetness in tomatoes. We concurred that we can intensify sweetness in cherry tomatoes more than we can in large slicing types. More on that later.

The Verde Claro tomato is bred for sweetness. The Green Grape was bred partly for sweetness, but the sweetness in the offspring VC is super.

Tom

[Tom Wagner]

I realized that a lot of people would wonder about why I cross tomatoes. There are many reasons.

I was with a fella looking at some soil that had on one part of the field some huge volcanic deposits. You could see the porous lava rock with the gas pockets in the "rock". The discussion centered around how tomatoes would utilize the minerals in the volcanic soil opposed to just a few hundred yards away where little or no volcanic rock was obvious.

i suggested an organic compost mixture to both soil types and correlation to multiple tomato varieties as a research agenda. I alluded to the fact that some tomatoes would have enhanced flavor components due to minerals and drainage. In the event of growing tomatoes on this plot of land, I submitted a plan of testing OP's, hybrids, and recombinants.

Tom Wagner

[Tomstrees]

Tom,

Great to see you monitoring this area!
I'm a big fan of yours because you CAN cross tomatoes!
(and wow lots of them! lol) ~

I've had crosses in my garden - natural crosses of course - but my own crossing skills need to be refined ...
Unfortunatley I butcher blossoms !!!
I want to be able to feel confident when performing my "crossing-projects".

Could you give me a laymans guide to crossing tomatoes , and any kind of equipment that would make it easier ?

Thanks in advance,

Tom

[Patrina_Pepperina]

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

I alluded to the fact that some tomatoes would have enhanced flavor components due to minerals and drainage. In the event of growing tomatoes on this plot of land, I submitted a plan of testing OP's, hybrids, and recombinants.

Tom Wagner

I couldn't tell if this was present, past or future Tom. If past, were you correct about the flavour enhancement due to mineral content of the volcanic soil?

Patrina

[Tom Wagner]

To Tomstrees,

I need to start a new post on crossing tomatoes. I will cover things like numbers of crosses I make, whether or not I butcher flowers, and how you can avoid my mistakes.
Obviously, I will include info on tools used, etc.

To jtcm05,
Verde Claro is becoming a "Nom de tomate" in my relations with folks far and wide. I am injecting the name into all sorts of verbal and written correspondence. I had no idea it would be la monnaie de guerre.
More later on Verde Claro.

To Patrina re: your question.

I couldn't tell if this was present, past or future Tom. If past, were you correct about the flavour enhancement due to mineral content of the volcanic soil?

I rode along with my friend yesterday to advise him on tomato culture, soil types, and minerals in general. I am trying to help him coordinate a bio-dynamics program of sorts. I am collecting data on the volcanic soil with County fertilizer experts in that area to determine water quality of wells, pH, soil tests and recomendations, establishing history on the never farmed nature of the field involved, and if mineral shale of 60 plus minerals need to be added to this soil, along with vermicultured manures, and mycorrhizal networking to have better mineral absorption capabilities of plant roots in such a soil or amended soil.

My special potting soil that I sold during the 70's and 80's was formulated for house plants, but augmented it made tomatoes tastier and I believe more nutritious. The soil had many natural minerals added to the mix. It had over 21 ingredients in it.

To date. My ideas, plus private and governmental/academic research, is driving my association with others to adapt tomatoes with flavor by linking it to minerals and how best to get the tomato plant to absorb them.

Some plants bring up lots of minerals from the ground and composted is like a secret recipe. In 1983 I determined that comfrey is good for tomatoes. I joked with my German friend as Beinwelljauche is translated as (Leg waving liquid manure)! He says, "Ja, nicht nur Tomaten lieben es, mit Beinwellblättern gemulcht zu werden", and I'm dying laughing and he's thinking.. Was ist los?

Tom Wagner

[Patrina_Pepperina]

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

In 1983 I determined that comfrey is good for tomatoes. I joked with my German friend as Beinwelljauche is translated as (Leg waving liquid manure)! He says, "Ja, nicht nur Tomaten lieben es, mit Beinwellblättern gemulcht zu werden", and I'm dying laughing and he's thinking.. Was ist los?

Tom Wagner

I might have to stick to the comfrey - my compost heap is a hazardous journey down to the back fence for any Beinwellblättern activity under cover of darkness

PP

[Patrina_Pepperina]

Very interesting reading Alan

[Tom Wagner]

Alan B.,

Volcanic rock and the residuals of such are of great importance to me now. The drainage characteristics and the minerals within are being sent to a lab for analysis. The sample was dug a few days ago. I know I will have to balance the minerals that are absent.

I have been advising a group of investors on using Redworm (Eisenia fetida) composting worms in con★★★★★★★★ with various organic waste stream materials. The mineral additives supported in part by publicized reports are being touted in several soil media mixes to be used in greenhouse production. My tomato varieties will likely be front and center to this proposed business plan.

Your landscaping work reminds me of some of my work in and around St. Joseph, Mo. during my greenhouse management era. I used my own soil mix to grow the tomato plants for the retail store. I also mixed the rose soil mix that grew the best potted rose bushes for sale that had the largest blooms folks had seen on bareroot potted roses. I just know that the mineral component was by far the biggest reason for their success.

I don't know where I am finding the time to do this consulting work, considering all the potatoes that need sorting out in the sheds. I have many thousands of potato clones that I have to cut and inspect just in order to throw most of them away.

Tom Wagner

[Althea]

This thread interests me because it is so rare to read about comfrey and volcanic rock outside an organic gardening forum.

I started using comfrey as a compost additive and an aerated compost tea additive last year after a discussion on an og board. Then, a friend gave me a comfrey plant. I swear that was the best batch of ACT I've ever brewed, but I didn't do any scientific control to determine how the comfrey affected growth or taste. All of the plants got a foliar feeding and some a soil drench too.

As well as those who contributed to the thread, the other good source of info on comfrey was from the Henry Doubleday Research Association. He started experimenting with comfrey in 1954. This link to the site continuing the research. If you search for "comfrey" you'll find tips on composting it, when to feed your tomatoes with comfrey and so on.

http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/about_us/history.php

I think Michael Johnson has been using volcanic rock in his garden. Alan, you may want to give him a hollar since he might not know about this thread.

Along with the rich source of minerals, volcanic rock is considered para-magnetic. Phil Callahan is probably the most cited about par-magnetism. Whether there is something to this or not, it is certainly a good source of minerals. Here' his site if you're interested.

http://members.tripod.com/~poetpiet/...amagnetism.htm

Last year I looked for sources of volcanic rock but could only find it through expensive (postage-wise) mail order. I didn't think about landscaping companies, which there are plenty of locally. Thanks for that tip Alan.

[Althea]

Tom, I forgot to ask in my last post, are you familiar with the work of Henry Doubleday?

[mouse]

Hi Tom,

Thanks so much for sharing a lifetime's wisdom, knowledge and experience with us.

I have spent a life chasing a will o' the wisp: control of flowering in various plant model systems and thin layer cultures. That is another story, but one which provides a context to the seemingly random questions that i may pepper you with from time to time.

So here goes the first: have you ever worked with Oregon Centennial and King's Breeder [Canada; Valiant x Ontario (?)]. These two have become difficult to find in the germplasm repository, and they interest me for a particular reason.

Second: as to the green fruited hybrids derived from L. chmielewskii, L. hirsutum, their crosses (LA1777), my interest is two-fold:

I) sucrose versus hexose accumulators [large fruited, reds] and the role of sugars as regulatory and signaling molecules impinging/converging on hormonal and light signal pathways,

II) therefore also on phenylpropanoid and isoprenoid pathways and gene families, my major focus.

Third: [and please forgive me for not knowing how to use the formatting tools in this website despite my best efforts] You must be very familiar with the potato breeding tool appended below. I s there a similar one for tomatoes? The closest thing I have are the notes of the Varietal Pedigree Committee given to me by Dr. Orson Cannon's grandson for a few of the older cultivars.

I am not a plant breeder, so it is helpful if there is a quick way to look up various plant defense genes or other inheritance of interest.
Peditree: Pedigree Database Analysis and Visualization for Breeding and Science

R. van Berloo, and R. C. B. Hutten



Thank you so much for devoting so much of your time and patience(!!!) to answer our questions when you have much more urgent tasks at hand.



mouse