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A garden is only as good as the ground that it's planted in. Discussion forum for the many ways to improve the soil where we plant our gardens.

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Old June 17, 2015   #16
Carriehelene
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Dave, my husband said last year he had a source for manure. Said he wanted to get it in the fall. Didn't happen. In his defense, he's battling cancer, so understandable. But you can see why I can't take his word on it. He thinks adding manure will solve all soil problems, while I know that's only part of it. My solution is, make as much compost as possible , while "hoping" for manure this year. I plan on doing what I can.
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Old June 17, 2015   #17
digsdirt
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No other sources of even just plain compost around? How big an area needs work? Can you get your hands on green baled hay at all? It is mow and bale time here but don't know when they do it in NY.

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Old June 18, 2015   #18
Carriehelene
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Hydrozoa, I know I answered you yesterday, don't know where it went. Anyways, my problem is just the opposite. Where my garden is, there used to be a building. Along about 70 years ago they tore it down, filled the basement with the brick walls of the building and filled it in with sand. Over the years nature built up the soil enough to support Bermuda grass, creeping Charlie, stinging nettle, Bermuda grass, some unknown weed that spreads by long heavy ropey roots, various weeds, and Bermuda grass. It's been a never ending battle against the grass. Every year we dig out all the grass we can, till deeply (12" at least) don't mulch, don't add organic matter back into the soil. My husband used landscape fabric in some areas last year. Know what happens when you use landscape fabric with Bermuda grass? Stupid grass will travel under the fabric, popping out of every planting hole. Anyways, end story is when I went to plant this year, I found nothing but sand. No soil, no worms, not even pill bugs. This is our 3rd year gardening in this area, so in 2 short years we undid what it took nature 70 years to do. Talk about incredibly stupid.
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Old June 18, 2015   #19
Carriehelene
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Dave, I plan on mulching the beds with hay. Hopefully my husband will be willing to picking it up this weekend with the truck, otherwise I'll be hauling it home one bale at a time lol. I'm going to spread the leaves from the trees out back over the garden this fall. I don't know how big the garden is, keep meaning to measure it, and keep forgetting. It's too big for me to buy individual bags of compost and manure, it would take just shy of forever and cost a fortune. We had to replace the roof and furnace at the rental house this spring, and replace the entire septic (including leech field) here, which they are working on now, hence the tree removal. So money is a little tight.
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Old June 18, 2015   #20
Carriehelene
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Another question lol. Umm, feel kinda stupid asking it, but if you don't ask how you going to know, right? Can onions be mulched? How deeply? Do I need to keep the hay away from the stalks?
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Old June 18, 2015   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carriehelene View Post
Another question lol. Umm, feel kinda stupid asking it, but if you don't ask how you going to know, right? Can onions be mulched? How deeply? Do I need to keep the hay away from the stalks?
Yes. I go about 3 inches. No.
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"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."
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Old June 18, 2015   #22
Carriehelene
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Thanks Redbaron
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Old June 18, 2015   #23
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It'd be beneficial for you to blend in some grass clippings, as a strictly hay mulch will encourage fungal dominance - not what ya want =)
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Old June 18, 2015   #24
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Is the difference the moisture content? Because hay is just tall grass that has been cut, dried in the sun for a couple days, and then baled.
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Old June 18, 2015   #25
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I have seen a fungal dominance issue develop with using straw in a couple of bad wet years but never with hay. At least not in my climate.

We mow and bale our own hay so I have used it in the gardens in all forms and stages of decomp for some 40+ years with no fungal issues. Do you get some fungus pockets developing? Sure ambient air temps permitting. But nothing that poses any problems or threat to the plants.

But I also use a great deal of composted manures so my bacterial count remains quite high.

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Old June 18, 2015   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie View Post
Is the difference the moisture content? Because hay is just tall grass that has been cut, dried in the sun for a couple days, and then baled.
No it has to do with the C/N ratio as well as the size and placement of the material being broken down.. less surface area will promote fungal dominance.. Fungus almost always beats bacteria to the surface, and is also more effective at breaking down woodier materials due to the acids they exude.. Grab the book "Teaming with Microbes" - what an excellent read! Breaks down the soil food web, mulches, Nitrogen preferences etc... I couldn't put it down.
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Old June 18, 2015   #27
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Originally Posted by digsdirt View Post
I have seen a fungal dominance issue develop with using straw in a couple of bad wet years but never with hay. At least not in my climate.

We mow and bale our own hay so I have used it in the gardens in all forms and stages of decomp for some 40+ years with no fungal issues. Do you get some fungus pockets developing? Sure ambient air temps permitting. But nothing that poses any problems or threat to the plants.

But I also use a great deal of composted manures so my bacterial count remains quite high.

Dave
I stand corrected .. My fault ladies and gentlemen. I had the issue with straw but I assumed hay to cause the same issue - strictly speculation, my apologies.
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Old June 18, 2015   #28
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Hey no problem Mike. Many people confuse hay and straw if they didn't grow up with them.
So it is easy to assume shared characteristics. But the almost pure nitrogen content of hay vs. the almost pure carbon content of straw make for some big differences when it comes to effects on and benefits for the soil.

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Old June 19, 2015   #29
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I would suggest to the OP that they read Scott's thread on his project. I would also suggest reading Tatiana's long thread about using wood chips in the garden, as it has a lot of good information and links to articles on studies using ramial wood.
I would post the links but I don't know how.
Personally, I'm starting to use Scott's method and have done similar in the past. The no-till using wood chips works really well.
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Old June 19, 2015   #30
Carriehelene
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Lol, read all 3 years worth in like 2 days. It so happens that when he posted his thread about his project in the 2 cents forum, I was actually in the middle of planting. It was his project that drew my attention to what we had done to our soil health. I will forever be grateful to him for this.
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