Hybrid is as Hybrid does

[Redbaron]

Please explain to me Travis. What is the difference between semi-determinate and semi-indeterminate? I am not interested in sending emails, or discussing politics, or discussing the ethics of releasing unstable varieties etc... Just please post the difference between semi-determinate and semi-indeterminate here.

[travis]

Red Baron:

Semi-determinate, as I said above, is a widely accepted designation of tomato vine growth type. You can Google "semi-determinate" for many discussions and descriptions of semi-determinate varieties and plant growth characteristics.

What I describe as "semi-indeterminate" is a growth pattern that varies to a degree, only noticeable by close observation, from fully indeterminate growth pattern. Fully indeterminate tomato vines generally put out their first efflorescence at the 5th to 7th internode along the main stem, then repeat efflorescences every third internode thereafter. The same pattern applies to all side shoots of fully indeterminate tomato vines.

What I call "semi-indeterminate" pattern is where a vine that appears otherwise to be indeterminate, will put out its first efflorescence at the 5th to 7th internode, then repeat efflorescences alternately at the second or third internode, and occassionally right on a node opposite the leaf pediole ... so you occasionally see a fruit cluster emerge right on the leaf node (rather than within the internodal stem segment), and opposite the leaf frond. Additionally, the semi-indeterminate meristem and side shoots never terminate with a terminal efflorescence as do fully determinate and semi-determinate vines. This "semi-indeterminate" type of growth pattern obviously has the potential to produce significantly more fruit than a fully indeterminate pattern. And that is why I select for it in the MoCross grow-outs.

I'd like to thank Mischka and Tomatoville for allowing my explanations, and hope my explanations have helped reduce the confusion and questionability of what you have read here and at other websites regarding my germplasm.

Bill Jeffers

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by travis

Red Baron:

Semi-determinate, as I said above, is a widely accepted designation of tomato vine growth type. You can Google "semi-determinate" for many discussions and descriptions of semi-determinate varieties and plant growth characteristics.

What I describe as "semi-indeterminate" is a growth pattern that varies to a degree, only noticeable by close observation, from fully indeterminate growth pattern. Fully indeterminate tomato vines generally put out their first efflorescence at the 5th to 7th internode along the main stem, then repeat efflorescences every third internode thereafter. The same pattern applies to all side shoots of fully indeterminate tomato vines.

What I call "semi-indeterminate" pattern is where a vine that appears otherwise to be indeterminate, will put out its first efflorescence at the 5th to 7th internode, then repeat efflorescences alternately at the second or third internode, and occassionally right on a node opposite the leaf pediole ... so you occasionally see a fruit cluster emerge right on the leaf node (rather than within the internodal stem segment), and opposite the leaf frond. Additionally, the semi-indeterminate meristem and side shoots never terminate with a terminal efflorescence as do fully determinate and semi-determinate vines. This "semi-indeterminate" type of growth pattern obviously has the potential to produce significantly more fruit than a fully indeterminate pattern. And that is why I select for it in the MoCross grow-outs.

I'd like to thank Mischka and Tomatoville for allowing my explanations, and hope my explanations have helped reduce the confusion and questionability of what you have read here and at other websites regarding my germplasm.

Bill Jeffers

OK Bill but what you just described is what is commonly found on semi-determinates. IE Indeterminates flower every 3rd node but grow on basically forever, Determinates every 2 nodes but terminate after several flower branches, And semi-determinates carry a mixture of both by flowering every 2 like a determinate and while a branch may terminate sometimes, the plant as a whole never terminates just like an indeterminate.

So is that the main thing you are drawing a distinction on? Whether a side branch sometimes terminates or whether it never terminates? Because if it never terminates ever, then I wonder why call it a semi-indeterminate at all? Sounds like a normal indeterminate that just happens to send out flowers at 2 nodes instead of 3. Or am I missing something else?

[travis]

Yes, Red, you are missing parts of the distinction I made between fully indeterminate growth patterns and the "semi-indeterminate" growth pattern I have observed in one of the MoCross lines.

Moreover, If I were to follow your line of reasoning, then there would be no distinction between determinate and semi-determinate.

But I don't think I will belabor the issue here any longer. Photographs would be more explanatory than my words, which apparently are insufficient to illuminate the distinctions between indeterminate and what I call semi-indeterminate from what I have observed. And for reasons I wish not to explain at this time, I will not post photographs from my photobucket at this time. Please understand or simply accept the position that I am in here.

Bill

Edit: I re-read your post, and now will add that not all determinates show efflorescences on every second internode. I have observed determinates (tomato plants with growth patterns that inevidably terminate the meristem and all side shoots with a terminal efflorescence) that put out efflorescences every internode, or alternately every internode and every other internode. So there are variances within the classification of fully determinate as well, I suppose. So, if it suits one, he may say that the "semi-indeterminate" pattern, as I call it, is nothing more than a variable indeterminate, then so be it. But I will continue to use my designation, as I feel it is as legit as "semi-determinate" from the detailed observations I have made.

[gixxerific]

Sounds like you are just jealous. Either that or just stupid or maybe mad, eh Steve. Isn't that why you started this thread, for revenge, c'mon tell the truth.

And to go after Bill, Mishka you should be ashamed of yourself. He is one the more honest and detail oriented breeders out there. He's not looking for fame or fortune just a good tomato and to be able to share that with the world. Get over the nothing you are fighting about and go plant some seed instead.

That's what we are here for. It's hard to be gardener when you are so busy trying to undermine a whole forum mainly because you dislike a single person. Than you drag others into it for no reason. Get a life!

I really can't take this much more. All the animosity and the hate. This has nothing to do with the garden. I am sorry you all got your asses kicked by all the neighborhood kids growing up or that your father molested you but don't take it out on us.

Us, yes, I a member at the hated forum as well as many other forums. That does not mean I take sides but all the confrontation in this matter seems to start from this side. Is it really necessary, ★★★★ NO!!!!

I will be happily growing out some of Bill's frankenfruit as you call them to a point. Too bad you won't, I am sorry for that.

You know there are some really great people on here it's just too bad there a small handful of ★★★★★★★s that ★★★★ it up for everyone else. Just like this thread what's the point, revenge in my eyes. Because you haven't shown me proof yet that your points will come to fruition. This is all based on speculation and hate.

By the way while you are banning me Mishka think about this. I have seeds from Craig for the Dwarf Project. Never fear Craig I am an honest non hate filled (except for now) person. I will grow out your seeds and try my best to report back to you even if I have to do it through email. But if for some reason I can not get back to you. Feel free to blame the hate mongers on this site.

Dono

Too all you haters you can suck my mother★★★★ing dick. To the rest I am sorry I will not be learning from and teaching you. And I hope you all have great gardens this year and every year after. Oh yea to all the haters again, I hope all your seedlings get a disease.

Peace out

[Redbaron]

I am not trying to be cagey Bill. I simply am not fully understanding. I see the productivity advantage of flowering every 2 nodes in an indeterminate. I have even grown indeterminates that had this trait, although it is rare. Over 30 years ago I crossed a Rutgers (semi-determinate strain) with a yellow indeterminate tomato, (I forget which one but it was from Burpee and Mom liked it) and in my f3 generation I had a yellow indeterminate that flowered every 2 nodes like you mentioned. It even occasionally threw an extra flower right at the leaf joint like you said above (very rarely). That strain is long gone because I moved away and got sidetracked with life!

But it never occurred to me to call it anything other than an especially fruitful and productive indeterminate.

[travis]

Red: I understand how it is, because I had a hard time comprehending "semi-determinate" due to the plethora of definitions or attempted explanations that exist online for semi-determinate ... often conflicting.

And the more words I try to use in my explanation of semi-determinate and semi-indeterminate, the more I risk confusion as well.

Let me cut to the chase: All determinates and semi-determinates eventually terminate all forward growth with an efflorescence. All indeterminates and semi-indeterminates eventually terminate foward growth by disease, frost, predation, mechanical destruction, etc., and not due to terminal efflorescences.

Then the distinctions between det., semi-det or between indet. and semi-indet. are the patterns of efflorescences relative to the internode spacing.

Also, I see you did notice what I said about the MoCross semi-indeterminate ... that there were frequent and in-pattern efflorescences right on the node rather than in the internodal stem segments. Yes, I found that promotes higher production, far better production in fact.

Anyway, here is a pdf that may help explain how one group of horticultural scientists defined semi-determinate: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/.../1074.full.pdf

[Sun City Linda]

You know dono, the only hate filled post that I see here, that is filled with anger, personal attacks, and name calling would be yours. You dont have anything I want.

[Mischka]

Classy language there, Donald Hudgens. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
I didn't go after Bill Jeffers - and I never have had any issue with his section of Marianna's site that sells CLEARLY LABELED crossed seeds that are not stable. For those wanting to buy those varieties, have at it. F2-F6 growouts can be fun - as long as you know in advance that you're going to get different types of fruits, foliage, etc.

I also have no idea whether or not Bill approved having his unstable seeds sold in Marianna's section of the site labeled "New for 2013 Heirloom Seeds" without any disclaimer about them being unstable i.e. not growing true-to-type.

Regardless, they ARE being sold in that manner (listed as a stable variety), along with many other unstable crosses also being deliberately misrepresented as stable varieties.

This isn't about jealousy.

It's about ripping off people that have no idea they're going to waste their money and an entire growing season on seeds that will not grow as advertised and/or described.

[Boutique Tomatoes]

I don't know, but I think this thread has diverged a bit from the original intent.

I completely agree that selling unstable lines without proper labeling isn't a particularly nice thing to do. However we can't do anything about the way anyone runs their business. As has been stated, there is a market that is interested in these lines with proper labeling. And some without proper labeling, Tom Wagners line's are not identified as to what generation they are yet find a ready market. Everything will eventually find equilibrium, to each their own.

I also read into the original post a bit of a rail against using commercial hybrids in breeding, but I don't entirely agree with that. For some things it makes sense for am independant breeder. For example the license fees for some of the NCSU lines definately put them out of reach for a hobbiest, but Dr. Gardner advised me to just grow out one of the commercial lines to get the genes I wanted for a project. And if you look at the release notices, some of the NCSU releases (NC1 rinEC for one) have an unknown hybrid purchased at a local supermarket in their parentage. So even the pro's have successfully done this.

This is starting to look like it belongs in the "Your 2¢ Worth" forum.

[travis]

As I said, apparently in another thread which I cannot find right this minute, I fully intend to clear up a few issues that have appeared on the section where my seeds were intended to be sold. This also applies to the "new for 2013" issues, where someone might mistake my still segregating and recombining germplasm as "heirlooms" which they definitely are not ... yet. The particular issues seem to have occurred due to cross communications during a period of time when the lady who owns the site and myself, independently, were going through some life changes such as retirement and vacating an office I had occupied for over two decades, and she in the process of a home sale, farm sale, operational move, and reestablishment at a new and distant location.

I'm not asking for a pass, nor am I attempting a lame excuse. Corrections need to be made. They will be made. Give it a little time. It may not clear up all issues that everyone has. I intend that it will clear up any issues that anyone legitimately has with my end of it. I want it to be crystal clear what someone is getting when they get seeds that I have produced. Right now, it will take a while for me to get all the text prepared due to projects that take priority here at home right now.

Edit: Mark, if you explore the NCSU seed lines farther, you'll also notice the use of Blazer F1 as a parent in the pedigree of breeding lines, and the use of Amelia F1 as a source, after several generations, of 3 of NCSU's TSWV-resistant breeding lines.

With regard to "not being a nice thing to do," all I can say is that I try my best to carefully select parental inputs so that I have a fairly decent idea of what to expect in the F3 and subsequent filial generations. I try to explain what to expect when someone grows out my F3 and subsequent filial generations, and to make careful observations when selecting what will serve them better.

Also, I have repeatedly told people to plant all the seeds and closely observe the young plants, weeding out the inferior recombinations. This was made most clear to me when developing Big Cheef, which for several generations threw more weak and floppy sibling plants than strong and productive plants. I had to destroy many plants, saving only the best before I finally arrived at a fantastic line. I don't even know the second parent in Big Cheef, because I got the F2 seeds from another member of Tomatoville, many years ago. But after that experience, I try my best to pick two parents that will throw what I predict will be superior results in the F3 and beyond. I mean as best I can as a learn-as-I-go, hobby breeder :::smile:::

That's it from my end of it. As I said earlier. You may contact me at my email address if you need clarification of other issues with regard to my seeds and my methods.

Enjoy your 2013 gardens, good health and prosperity.

Peace,

Bill Jeffers

[Redbaron]

Bill,
Do you suppose the "semi-indeterminate" trait is caused by the recessive sdt gene partially expressing itself in the presence of the dominate sp gene? I know the page you sent me said the sp gene was fully dominate, but it would seem to me that is far more likely. They also said it was 82% and 70% that semi-determinate traits were from the single sdt gene. However, it is also possible to get results like that from 2 genes that are closely linked. If it is 2 genes closely linked (one recessive and one either dominate or incomplete dominate or possibly co-dominant), it would explain some of the stranger variations like what you are describing.

At least to my feeble mind it seems more likely than a whole new semi-indeterminate gene. Otherwise how unlikely would it be that me over 30 years ago on my first breeding attempt get such a closely similar phenotype crossing a semi determinate and an indeterminate in only the F3? The odds seem really really stacked against it, unless one of the parents of the lines you used is that long lost Rutgers semi determinate strain from Indiana I have been looking for.

[Boutique Tomatoes]

Bill, I completely understand what you're saying and that was not directed at you. If it appeared that way I am sorry.

There are a couple of sellers where an unsuspecting buyer may not realize they're buying an F1-F5 line. I wish all of them were labeled and instructions given for making selections like in the Create Your Own Heirloom section of Marianna's where yours are offered.

[Mischka]

Sweet Beverley must be one of those "create your own heirloom" varieties that Dean and Marianna forgot to warn folks about, right? You know, like most of the other ones they listed under the category "New for 2013 Heirloom Seeds".

Let's ask all the poor folks that bought seeds for Sweet Beverley from Baker Creek last season and found out the hard way that the variety is as unstable as Lindsay Lohan on a Friday night. Watch out for Sweet Sharon too.... Sweet Beverley's equally unstable "sister".

[Tapout]

Ever lose your car keys? That is how I feel after reading this thread.