Micro-organisms

[dcarch]

Let me first admit that I have done zero reading on this topic. I apologize if my view is totally irrelevant.

I have a fundamental problem with the concept of introducing a foreign organism that is not native in your particular area; even it may be seemingly beneficial.

The end result can be very drastic, as history has taught us many terrible lessons many times.

dcarch

[igarden]

these recipes for LB, EM/BIM are all concocted in a way to absorb beneficial organisms from the environment within one's own area.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by igarden

these recipes for LB, EM/BIM are all concocted in a way to absorb beneficial organisms from the environment within one's own area.

Not quite correct. EM is in fact a Trade marked starter product sold in North America and around the world by a Japanese company with a franchise organisation.
LB, BIM, IM is a self help process and doesn't require any bought starter.

I too have reservations of introducing foreign bacteria into my local system, which is why I am interested in using local stuff. (LB, Bim or IM) not EM.

[igarden]

Originally Posted by beeman

Not quite correct. EM is in fact a Trade marked starter product sold in North America and around the world by a Japanese company with a franchise organisation.
LB, BIM, IM is a self help process and doesn't require any bought starter.

I too have reservations of introducing foreign bacteria into my local system, which is why I am interested in using local stuff. (LB, Bim or IM) not EM.

i was under the understanding that EM - Effective Microorganisms - is called in the western world; or BIM - Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms is called in eastern cultures. they are the same, correct, just different terms?

the recipe given for EM does not require a starter in Cal G's booklet. i have seen recipes that do require the starter. to me it is more fruitful to make my own as it will gather microbes condusive to my area.

[RJ_Hythloday]

Originally Posted by igarden

i was under the understanding that EM - Effective Microorganisms - is called in the western world; or BIM - Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms is called in eastern cultures. they are the same, correct, just different terms?

the recipe given for EM does not require a starter in Cal G's booklet. i have seen recipes that do require the starter. to me it is more fruitful to make my own as it will gather microbes conducive to my area.

I have seen some recipes for EM1 and EM5. I have not followed any of the recipes exactly and choose to call any thing I make BIM beneficial indigenous microorganisms. EM or effective microorganisms is a patented term and should be used only to refer to the purchased product.

[igarden]

there is a pdf file i do not have a link for, but one can copy and paste the title here and put it in the browser to look up...

BENEFICIAL AND EFFECTIVE MICROORGANISMS FOR A
SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE AND ENVIRONMENT

............A more specific classification of beneficial microorganisms has been suggested
by Higa (1991; 1994; 1995) which he refer to as "Effective Microorganisms" or EM. This
report presents some new perspectives on the role and application of beneficial
microorganism, including EM, as microbial inoculants for shifting the soil
microbiological equilibrium in ways that can improve soil quality, enhance crop
production and protection, conserve natural resources, and ultimately create a more
sustainable agriculture and environment The report also discusses strategies on how
beneficial microorganisms, including EM. can be more effective after inoculation into
soils.......

i understand the trademark thing, but i am not talking about that. i'm talking about making one's own EM/BIM. am i right about the terminology? one's western culture (EM) and the other eastern (BIM)?

here's a link to a booklet with recipes for EM...

http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa...ation%2Fmsword

[dcarch]

I am not that smart in science. I apologize if this sounds illogical.

According the law of conservation of energy, “The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy (matter) in an isolated system remains constant. A consequence of this law is that energy (matter) cannot be created or destroyed. ...”

In a given quantity of soil, there is a given amount of nutrients. Unless the microorganisms can add extra nutrients (K, N, P and trace elements) to the soil (not counting nitrogen fixing microbes) it will not increase the soil’s nutrient quantities. Althought they may or may not increase the rate of nutrient depletion by the plants, they certainly cannot improve the soil's quality in terms of nutreints.

Therefore I have a hard time understand the following:

“---------------in ways that can improve soil quality, enhance crop production and protection, conserve natural resources, and ultimately create a more sustainable agriculture and environment------------------“

dcarch

[RJ_Hythloday]

Originally Posted by dcarch

I am not that smart in science. I apologize if this sounds illogical.

According the law of conservation of energy, “The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy (matter) in an isolated system remains constant. A consequence of this law is that energy (matter) cannot be created or destroyed. ...”

In a given quantity of soil, there is a given amount of nutrients. Unless the microorganisms can add extra nutrients (K, N, P and trace elements) to the soil (not counting nitrogen fixing microbes) it will not increase the soil’s nutrient quantities. Althought they may or may not increase the rate of nutrient depletion by the plants, they certainly cannot improve the soil's quality in terms of nutreints.

Therefore I have a hard time understand the following:

“---------------in ways that can improve soil quality, enhance crop production and protection, conserve natural resources, and ultimately create a more sustainable agriculture and environment------------------“

dcarch

I'm not sure the exact answer to your question, but I do know that adding organic matter and microorganisms benefits soil. I moved into a brand new housing complex, the top soil that was brought in was very poor. 2 years of improvements has seriously benefitted the quality of soil.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by dcarch

According the law of conservation of energy, “The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy (matter) in an isolated system remains constant. A consequence of this law is that energy (matter) cannot be created or destroyed. ...”

But soil is not an 'isolated' system. The moment you add something that statement is false.
The idea of adding any BIM/IM to soil is to provide added bacteria/microbes which start to transform OM to the nutrients necessary for plants to flourish.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by igarden

i understand the trademark thing, but i am not talking about that. i'm talking about making one's own EM/BIM. am i right about the terminology? one's western culture (EM) and the other eastern (BIM)?

We really should not be using the term EM as it refers to a patented method, sold in the USA by EMamerica.
I think if you check the dates Cal G was using the term EM before EMamerica took over the term with the patent.
For safety's sake and better clarity it would be better to refer to BIM/IM and ignore EM, unless you want to waste your money buying EM.
By the way, the link you provided didn't work for me, all I got was gobledegook!

[amideutch]

Add is a bad word. They (the microorganisms) make nutrients available by either setting up symbiotic relationship with the plant and rhizophere or by making nutrients available that are otherwise locked in the soil and unavailable to the plants whether a symbiotic relationship exists or not.
Nutrients have to be given to the soil whether they be organic or inorganic. You have no till methods that are meant not to disturb the microorganisms in the soil and allow them to proliferate and those that till the soil to add organic matter and nutrients while increasing aeration of. In this case the addition of beneficial microorganisms or mycorrhizae will be of great benefit as the tilling has depleted the microbial herd and more is needed to develop that symbiotic relatioship between the roots and the rhizophere and make available the nutrients to the plants. Ami

[beeman]

Originally Posted by amideutch

Add is a bad word.

I need some clarification, please. Why is add a bad word? This precisely what we're doing.
We are building up bacteria/microbes to 'add' them to the soil, to compensate for a possible shortage.
It's not only tilling which depletes the herd, adding chemicals, acid rain, pollution, pesticides and fungicides, so we need to add extra to replace what is missing or has been killed off, at the same time as we're adding compost or soil amendments.

[amideutch]

[QUOTE]In a given quantity of soil, there is a given amount of nutrients. Unless the microorganisms can add extra nutrients (K, N, P and trace elements) to the soil (not counting nitrogen fixing microbes) it will not increase the soil’s nutrient quantities. /QUOTE]
"Add is a bad word" was in response to the above statement by dcarch. The microorganisms do not add to the NPK level of the soil but can make more nutrients available to the plants as I went on to explain. Ami

[dcarch]

I know, I should do a little more reading up on this topic to participate this discussion and I have not. I am indeed sorry if I make some uneducated comments.

What I don’t understand:

• If you let a gallon of whatever “compost tea” evaporate, what do you have left behind? Not even ½ of a tea spoon’s worth of substance? What can this do? Is this better than one cubic foot of compost?

• I have a hard time understanding tilting the soil can kill microbes and little good bugs. I tilt every year to as deep as 36” my soil is still very productive. I have a bread machine, it kneads the dough like crazy, yet the yeast gets even more active. Microbes are so small and pervasive, machining can never kill them.

• I understand if you have poor soil to begin with, any thing you do will be beneficial, but if you have a good amount of organic matter in the soil which is well balanced, I don’t see any need to add any more “beneficial microbes”. My problem has been to keep my plants under control; they are growing crazy. I don’t want them to grow any bigger or faster.

• If the beneficial microbes are more powerful than the bad ones in you soil, by the law of survival of the fittest, they would have been there to begin with.

• At the end, the most fertile soil will get depleted depending on how intensive you use it and you will have to replenish it with fertilizer, organic or chemical. I am finding it interesting that there are still people trying to convince others that there is such a thing as “perpetual fertile soil”.

• Assuming that the soil is in its optimal condition, the vigor of plants is governed by genetics, very few things can significantly change the growth habits except environmental factors (light, temperature, etc. Gibberellin acid can do crazy things to plants). Isn’t this true?

• “----by making nutrients available that are otherwise locked in the soil and unavailable to the plants---“

I am not challenging this statement; I am not sure what nutrients can be locked in the soil and become unavailable to the plants. Everything eventually decomposes. In any case, the nutrients which are “locked”, wouldn’t it be a simpler thing just to add more fertilizer?

dcarch ???

[dice]

If you let a gallon of
compost tea evaporate, what do you
have left behind? Not even ½ of a
tea spoon worth of substance?
What can this do? Is this better
than one cubic foot of compost?

When used promptly, the relative microorganism
population of that 1/2 tsp of solids is very high,
compared to the microorganisms in the compost used
to make it. The molasses or other sugars, kelp,
etc added when brewing compost tea allow for a
microbial population explosion. (If you let it sit
too long after the extra microbe food is used up,
the population dies back to what it was in the
compost.)

You pour this around your rootball, and the rate
of breakdown of both organic and mineral nutrients
in the soil is temporarily accelerated, until the
population settles to what the soil itself
naturally supports. When I did this, my plants put
on a nice growth spurt. The nutrition was there
in slow release form, the compost tea increased
the rate of nutrient release. (In a short summer,
this matters.)

No-till is more about not breaking up soil
aggregates (larger structures formed mainly by
fungi that improve aeration and drainage) and
reducing erosion (plus maybe some saved cost in
fuel, but you do have to knock down the winter
cover crop in spring, so the energy cost
differential compared to tilling is not much).