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Old September 1, 2018   #1
encore
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Default question on seeds

just was wondering, if you have a heirloom tomato plant, lets just say black krim, as an example, now you don't bag the blossoms, but you save seeds from one of the tomatoes, chances are good that they won't be black krim plants, but my question is: will all the seeds in that tomato that you saved, be the same? or could the seeds produce a variety of differant plants?--thanks -tom
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Old September 1, 2018   #2
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It happens. The hybrid seed in your "crossed" tomato are identical.
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Old September 1, 2018   #3
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Since the tomato flower is often self pollinated, often even unbagged tomatoes will grow true but crosses DO happen. If a tomato flower gets pollinated by a different variety, all of those seeds in that particular tomato will be crossed. The seeds in that one tomato will NOT be some of the original variety and some of the crossed variety.


This is to the best of my knowledge.
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Old September 1, 2018   #4
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Since the tomato flower is often self pollinated, often even unbagged tomatoes will grow true but crosses DO happen. If a tomato flower gets pollinated by a different variety, all of those seeds in that particular tomato will be crossed. The seeds in that one tomato will NOT be some of the original variety and some of the crossed variety.


This is to the best of my knowledge.
And if not all of the seed embryos have been fertilized,not just One variety, as Imp mentioned, but up to FOUR different seeds with different genetic DNA can be found in one fruit.

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Old September 1, 2018   #5
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that's what I was looking for. so then say, if a seed is planted and it turns out to be a black krim, all those seeds will be black krim? but if it's not a black krim it could be up to 4 different types of tomatoes, from that 1 fruit?---tom
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Old September 1, 2018   #6
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And if not all of the seed embryos have been fertilized,not just One variety, as Imp mentioned, but up to FOUR different seeds with different genetic DNA can be found in one fruit.

Carolyn

I did not know that! Wow, thank you, Carolyn, learn so much from you.
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Old September 2, 2018   #7
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that's what I was looking for. so then say, if a seed is planted and it turns out to be a black krim, all those seeds will be black krim? but if it's not a black krim it could be up to 4 different types of tomatoes, from that 1 fruit?---tom
I wrote a very long post to you and just as I was ready to send I lost Tville completely.I can get here now but don't know if this will hold or not since when I hit my short cut icon at the top of my home page it just says timed out, error XXX.

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Old September 3, 2018   #8
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And if not all of the seed embryos have been fertilized,not just One variety, as Imp mentioned, but up to FOUR different seeds with different genetic DNA can be found in one fruit.

Carolyn
Why four? There's more than 4 seeds.
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Old September 3, 2018   #9
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Carolyn, my memory goes back to a thread on the old Gardenweb site where this was discussed at length with the conclusion that the odds in a large garden was about a 5% chance of a cross. Other factors always affect this. Such as exerted stigma, bee activity, and even to some degree wind shaking the blooms and blowing pollen from one plant to another. There are a number of other things that can get into the mix. The wind blowing pollen around can even impact bagged blooms and create unintentional crosses that we gardeners try to do.
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Old September 3, 2018   #10
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How will I ever remember what I originally wrote. I probably won't but at least I can try.

Let's go back to where I said UP TO 4 seeds in ONE fruit could have different DNA in their seeds.

Normally pollination occurs before the blossoms even open, but not always.

Try this link first, I added Tomatoville to my search since I knew darn well that this has been discussed before. And Keith Muellers site also has some great information as well.

https://www.google.com/search?q=How+...&bih=815&dpr=1

Normally the pollen bearing anthers(male contribution), fall to the emerging pistil ( female Part) and if ALL ovules in the the tomato ovary are fertilized that's good, and self pollination rules and all seeds will be the same in any ONE given fruit.

And you then see a small green knob which will get larger and end up forming a new tomato plant. But that doesn't always happen.

As the seed embryo develops,there can be spontaneous mutations,which are usually heritable and genetically stable. Or there can be somatic mutations which occur not in seeds,but in the plant soma,(body)of the plant, and they too are usually permanent and heritable.

But we're talking about one plant of a variety and few I know only grow one plant except those of us who list in the SSE Annual Yearbook know as well as those who make large seed offers, since we need a few thousand seeds to satisfy requests without having to regrow each year for new seeds,since tomato seeds,if stored properly can still have excellent germination with 5 yo seed,except for heart varieties.

Summary? If not all of the ovules in the tomato ovary are fertilized, then cross pollination can occur, and up to 4 cross pollinations can occure which then leads to a fruit that can have 4 different seeds in it and this was shown to happen, but I'm not going to take the time to do more searches to find those experimental papers.

An anecdote. I had saved seeds of a variety, several thousands, for my seed offers here at Tville and also SSE listings , and of course wouldn't know what showed up until the Fall reports.And now I'm speaking of Tville, since sending out seeds to SSE members from the Yearbook,seldom was there any feedback at all.

The Fall reports were going just fine until TWO folks said they didn't get what they should have for the variety requested,enter probably spontaneous mutation OR lack of the enzyme DNA ligase which fixes errors/breaks in the seed DNA.

At least I tried to remember what I originally said, but if anyone still has questions please just ask them here in this thread and I can perhaps try to use different words to explain.

Carolyn
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Old September 3, 2018   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by encore View Post
just was wondering, if you have a heirloom tomato plant, lets just say black krim, as an example, now you don't bag the blossoms, but you save seeds from one of the tomatoes, chances are good that they won't be black krim plants, but my question is: will all the seeds in that tomato that you saved, be the same? or could the seeds produce a variety of differant plants?--thanks -tom
Chances are good it will produce black krim seeds.
Each potential seed has a stigma each potential seed be it 100 or what ever mechanically can be of a different male parent but not likely with a tomato because as was said much of the time it is fertilized before the flower opens up.

The same as if a dog has 5 eggs it can have five puppies with 5 different fathers.
The same goes for corn silks each one goes to a separate kernel of corn.
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