Mint Julep - a.k.a. Michael Pollan

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

Thanks, Tania.

Another one you might ask Brad about is Apple, which I think is his too. Maybe it's Tom Wagners. Don't really know right now.

Anyway, Totally Tomatoes has it described as "a cross between Indigo Rose and a red cherry tomato. First of all, wasn't Indigo Rose just made available by Oregon State Univ. in 2013? How then could seeds be available for a stable, open pollinated variety resulting from a cross with Indigo Rose and a cherry tomato? Maybe it's an F1 hybrid?

Secondly, if Apple is an F1 hybrid, it certainly appears, from the catalog photo, to be a bit large for a first generation cross between Indigo Rose and any cherry tomato I've ever seen.

Maybe Brad or Tom has the answers.

Indigo Rose seeds were made available last year, see the announcement from Oregon State in thelink below and also the various threads at GW

https://www.google.com/#q=indigo+rose+tomato

Is this Indigo Apple that you were thinking of? If so, bred by Brad Gates. Not sure which Apple you refer to but I prefer Honeycrisp ones.

https://awhaley.com/seeds/vegetables...o/indigo-apple

Hope that helps, somewhat,

Carolyn

[travis]

This is the tomato to which I am referring, Carolyn:
http://www.totallytomato.com/dp.asp?...o+Apple+Tomato

Online, Totally Tomatoes calls it "Indigo Apple."

On page 3 of Totally Tomatoes 2014 catalog, it's called simply "Apple."

In both instances, Totally Tomatoes claims it's "a cross between Indigo Rose and a red cherry tomato" and that it's "2 to 4 ounces" in size.

I was questioning both those statements in my post as quoted by you.

[Tania]

Indigo Apple story as I know it: http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Indigo_Apple

OSU Blue was one of the parents, not Indigo Rose. I think TT catalog got the story wrong.

[travis]

Thank you again, Tania.

I thought Brad had been working with "OSU Blue" as his anthocyanin input rather than the other versions of the same OSU working lines (P20 and Indigo Rose), but I wasn't sure.

Edit: But now that I linked over to the description at your site, Tania, I see where the original germplasm comes from, and I'm pretty sure I know which "OSU" tomato was used in the original cross. That throws a whole new twist into the mix, as I suspect that original "blue" parent came from someone in England who got his germplasm from a certain someone right here in Evansville. If so, the anthocyanin type germplasm used was not simply OSU Blue, I assure you.

[Wi-sunflower]

Actually Indigo Rose has been out for 2 years already. I got seeds for it and grew it out last summer (2012).

I got seeds for Indigo Apple from WBF last winter and grew it this summer. And yes it is somewhat larger than Indigo Rose so it isn't likely a cross with IR and a cherry.

JMO,
Carol

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

Thank you again, Tania.

I thought Brad had been working with "OSU Blue" as his anthocyanin input rather than the other versions of the same OSU working lines (P20 and Indigo Rose), but I wasn't sure.

Edit: But now that I linked over to the description at your site, Tania, I see where the original germplasm comes from, and I'm pretty sure I know which "OSU" tomato was used in the original cross. That throws a whole new twist into the mix, as I suspect that original "blue" parent came from someone in England who got his germplasm from a certain someone right here in Evansville. If so, the anthocyanin type germplasm used was not simply OSU Blue, I assure you.

OK, I see now that what's known as Indigo Apple, was just listed as Apple, but from the description on page 3 at TT. I was led to believe that all of the ones listed were from Indigo Rose, which didn't make sense as you pointed out above Bill.

The original cross? PKS. Must have been Blane since I recall him showing some pictures at idig and Mark M showing some pictures at his blog and referring to one in particular as coming from Blane.

Bill, are you telling me that there's someone else in Evansville who knows as much as you do about various aspects of tomatoes as to genetics, who has what and why and where from?

Carolyn

[travis]

I am sure Blane has nothing to do with this. He has assured me and someone else whom I trust 100% confirmed it.

Indigo Apple is not a cross that includes a cherry tomato.

And Indigo Apple does not include a parent of the OSU germplasm that I thought may have come from an accidentally outcrossed tomato in my garden that has become known as "OSU Blue Large." My assumption last night, in that regard, was incorrect.

[FarmerShawn]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Actually Indigo Rose has been out for 2 years already. I got seeds for it and grew it out last summer (2012).

JMO,
Carol

Re: Indigo Rose, I was going to post the same thing - I have grown it for two years now. I don't really care much for the taste, but it just looks so cool! It's a real conversation piece in my garden. And it's not horrible tasting; I just don't care for it, and I have so many more that I just love to eat.

[Wi-sunflower]

I didn't think the taste of Indigo Rose was all that bad IF you wait to pick it when it's actually ripe. The problem is "when is it ripe ?". It will turn "blue" so early and over so much of the fruit that it's hard to see that the bit not blue is still green. You have to wait til that not blue part is PINK and then it has a decent flavor. But for me that was quite late so we didn't get a whole lot of ripe fruit.

Carol

[FarmerShawn]

Yes, Carol, and I also noticed that the tomato overall turned dull - lost its shine - as it got riper. Mine were nice and red inside, but I still preferred many of my other tomatoes for taste. As I said, they weren't spitters, by any means, but I didn't call them great, or delicious; just OK.

[travis]

Some observations regarding Indigo Blue, OSU Blue, and Etc. Blues ...

The OSU Blue that I got from the lady who offered them 6 or so years ago at Dave's Garden (she said she had a friend who worked at the Oregon State Univ. lab, or something like that) was fully determinate when I grew it. It was a large cherry or small saladette size tomato, about the same size as Juane Flammee.

It's not hard to tell when the OSU Blue type tomatoes are fully ripe. They turn red on all the areas not stained with anthocyanin.

Back to OSU Blue ...

So, I only save seeds from one of the OSU Blue vines that was the best example, most productive, blah, blah, blah. I share seeds with just a very few people who I will not name here for reasons that will become obvious as this post moves along.

One of the people with whom I shared seeds listed them in the SSE Yearbook, and I got a call from Dr. Myers asking me to desist sharing the seeds. His request was polite, and his explanation was logical. Basically, he said the germplasm was unstable for the characteristics he was shooting for, and that he and OSU intended to release a stable line within a few years. I said I would desist sharing the seeds. I did. And in fact I never grew the line again.

Now, at the same time Dr. Myers made his request to me, he was sharing a line of OSU Blue, known as P20, with several other growers whom he apparently felt were more worthy of receiving the germplasm than those of us who had obtained the similar germplasm via Dave's Garden or the SSE Yearbook. I think this is rather offensive from my egalitarian point of view. But it is what it is.

Fact is, none of the people who received P20, with the idea of breeding more tasty versions of anthocyanin tomatoes, have released squat (to my knowledge) except Tom Wagner. Thank you, Tom, for sharing your work with the world.

Does anyone get the point yet?

Furthermore, it appears that some of the folks who received the alternate, contraband OSU Blue germplasm now have released lines that in my opinion and the apparent opinion of several growers I hear say the products are superior to Indigo Rose. And thankfully more available to the general public than anything resulting from the "special group" of growers entrusted with P20, with the exception of what Tom Wagner has shared with the world. Again, thank you Tom. Your stuff is beautiful and diverse.

But listen up now. The beautiful and reportedly tasty products that share the genetics of "OSU BLue" that escaped via the Dave's Garden source, rather than genetics from Indigo Blue or P20, include those now offered in the Johnny's Selected Seeds, High Mowing Seeds, and Totally Tomatoes. Such is the irony.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

Some observations regarding Indigo Blue, OSU Blue, and Etc. Blues ...

The OSU Blue that I got from the lady who offered them 6 or so years ago at Dave's Garden (she said she had a friend who worked at the Oregon State Univ. lab, or something like that) was fully determinate when I grew it. It was a large cherry or small saladette size tomato, about the same size as Juane Flammee.

It's not hard to tell when the OSU Blue type tomatoes are fully ripe. They turn red on all the areas not stained with anthocyanin.

Back to OSU Blue ...

So, I only save seeds from one of the OSU Blue vines that was the best example, most productive, blah, blah, blah. I share seeds with just a very few people who I will not name here for reasons that will become obvious as this post moves along.

One of the people with whom I shared seeds listed them in the SSE Yearbook, and I got a call from Dr. Myers asking me to desist sharing the seeds. His request was polite, and his explanation was logical. Basically, he said the germplasm was unstable for the characteristics he was shooting for, and that he and OSU intended to release a stable line within a few years. I said I would desist sharing the seeds. I did. And in fact I never grew the line again.

Now, at the same time Dr. Myers made his request to me, he was sharing a line of OSU Blue, known as P20, with several other growers whom he apparently felt were more worthy of receiving the germplasm than those of us who had obtained the similar germplasm via Dave's Garden or the SSE Yearbook. I think this is rather offensive from my egalitarian point of view. But it is what it is.

Fact is, none of the people who received P20, with the idea of breeding more tasty versions of anthocyanin tomatoes, have released squat (to my knowledge) except Tom Wagner. Thank you, Tom, for sharing your work with the world.

Does anyone get the point yet?

Furthermore, it appears that some of the folks who received the alternate, contraband OSU Blue germplasm now have released lines that in my opinion and the apparent opinion of several growers I hear say the products are superior to Indigo Rose. And thankfully more available to the general public than anything resulting from the "special group" of growers entrusted with P20, with the exception of what Tom Wagner has shared with the world. Again, thank you Tom. Your stuff is beautiful and diverse.

But listen up now. The beautiful and reportedly tasty products that share the genetics of "OSU BLue" that escaped via the Dave's Garden source, rather than genetics from Indigo Blue or P20, include those now offered in the Johnny's Selected Seeds, High Mowing Seeds, and Totally Tomatoes. Such is the irony.

Thanks for all the info Bill.

And well I remember the lady at DG who was distributing seeds. She actually worked in Dr. Myer's lab and when I asked her if she had permission to share those seeds, knowing that Dr. Myers had already shared seeds with some others and they had to sign a release form saying they couldn't share with others, she casually said that no one told her she couldn't.

I was sent some fruits, I think they were P20's, by someone who had received P20 seeds from Myers for breeding purposes, and should have signed the release form,and I shouldn't have been a recipient, and I thought they tasted lousy and never saved seeds.

Carolyn

[Labradors2]

Travis wrote:

"The OSU Blue that I got from the lady who offered them 6 or so years ago at Dave's Garden (she said she had a friend who worked at the Oregon State Univ. lab, or something like that) was fully determinate when I grew it. It was a large cherry or small saladette size tomato, about the same size as Juane Flammee."

That's very interesting! Maybe it explains why my "Indigo Rose" produced small fruit the size of large cherry tomatoes. I bought one plant from someone selling seedlings at a Farmer's Market. The seller told me that the purplish leaves were normal, and to wait for the spot underneath to turn red before eating.

As others have said, they were "different", not bad, but not worth growing again.

Linda

[Wi-sunflower]

I remember when all the talk about OSU Blue was going around. I never asked for seeds but someone added a pack in a trade I had back in 08 or 09. And yes those early tomatoes were quite unstable as I got several types of tomatoes and plants. Some larger fruit and some PL plants.

I actually had a customer that bought a plant or 2 a couple of years because they loved the flavor of the fruit. Different tastes for different folks.

And like Bills history, the plant world is full of "amateurs" doing what the "experts" claim ISN'T POSSIBLE. And aren't we all happy that they do.

Carol

[Tania]

Brad responded to my question. This is what he said ( I am posting this with Brad's permission):

I am in a relationship with several partners to distribute some of my varieties. One of them thought it was best to rename that variety for whatever reason. I disagree personally. I believe some are calling it Mint Julep, some both and some stayed with Michael Pollan before I could've clear it up. Can't take back what happened but I can ensure it won't happen again.

Looks like some people still think they can rename varieties...