Mint Julep - a.k.a. Michael Pollan - Page 4

MikeInCypress · December 25, 2013

Thanks Tania for clearing this up. It's Michael Pollan for me from now on.

MikeInCypress

remy · December 25, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tania

Brad responded to my question. This is what he said ( I am posting this with Brad's permission):

Looks like some people still think they can rename varieties...

I don't like that.
Remy

Poma_adoris · December 25, 2013

As some may know, there is an International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (the ICNCP for short) which is published by the International Society for Horticultural Science, and which is supposed to be updated every 10 years after a symposium among participating horticultural taxonomists, plant breeders and other interested parties to discuss and agree on changes. LOL Taxonomists agreeing? Not likely. The most recent is the 8th edition from 2009. Find information at http://www.ishs.org/sci/icracpco.htm and also http://www.ishs.org/sci/icra.htm.

There are guidelines in the code about naming nearly any kind of cultivated variety, whether seed or clonally propagated. However, following the rules is not mandatory since ISHS has no legal standing to enforce them.

The main concern is trying to prevent duplication of names, the general thought being that it's worse to have two different cultivars being offered by the same name than to have one cultivar being offered under multiple names - although of course that is not desirable either.

Multiplication of names became a real problem when applying "trademark" names became common. Then a plant often has the cultivar name cited in addition to the trademarked name, which one is not free to use without license. This is a ploy to avoid the limitations of plant patents, which expire after 20 years, but if the buyers only recognize a plant by the trademark name, they won't realize the real name is the cultivar name and that the plant can be propagated and sold freely under that name. An example of a trademark name in tomatoes would be the "Goliath" designation.

As several of you have observed, those who are looking to profit will choose names as best suits their purpose, and then it becomes caveat emptor, which is not new in horticulture at all, is it?

Poma_adoris · December 25, 2013

P.S. I am having trouble following what seem to be insinuations of misbehavior on the part of someone in using the OSU blue tomato germplasm, because I don't know who is being implicated.

One question I have always had: do any of these lines come from the snapdragon anthocyanin gene transfer? I have been told no, and I am inclined to suppose not, since the owners of that kind of technology usually guard it closely.

I grew 'Indigo Apple' last year from Brad Gates @Wild Boar. They didn't crack, and ripened beautifully. So beautiful I couldn't bring myself to eat the few I had, because I planted them too late. Next year ...

remy · December 26, 2013

Poma_adoris,
You are right hat it has happened for some time. Many of us know of places that always changed names to make it seem like they have something better or different. It is unfortunate that it seems to be happening with such a new variety and with such a well known company.
Plant names often switch when coming into the USA. I know it happens frequently with roses. A rose that might be popular in say England with a certain name will get a name change for here. Importers obviously think that a rose won't sell with certain names. I don't like it, but at least that name change is consistent throughout the US so you don't think you are buy something different from one vendor or another.
Remy

Doug9345 · December 26, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poma_adoris

P.S. I am having trouble following what seem to be insinuations of misbehavior on the part of someone in using the OSU blue tomato germplasm, because I don't know who is being implicated.

The general gist of the OSU blue/P20 was that someone (an assistant I believe) shared seed with people when she wasn't supposed. The story I've read is more one of airheadness than theft or maliciousness.

Quote:

One question I have always had: do any of these lines come from the snapdragon anthocyanin gene transfer? I have been told no, and I am inclined to suppose not, since the owners of that kind of technology usually guard it closely.

No the anthocyanin gene is from some wild species that was crossed to a domestic tomato. I'm sure there are people here that know the story better than I do.
[/QUOTE]

travis · December 26, 2013

It should be noted here that the OSU Blue that "escaped" reportedly via a lab employee may not be the exact same line as P20, which was made available by OSU tomato breeding program administrators to certain "tomato breeders" subject to a seed transfer agreement.

I say that because the often seen designation "OSU Blue/P20" leaves one with the impression that OSU Blue and P20 are one in the same breeding line, and I was told by Dr. Myers that is not exactly the case.

**carolyn137** · December 26, 2013

I got a few more catalogs in the mail today, and speaking of changing names, one of them now calls the radish variety long known as French Breakfast as D'Avignon.

Another catalog says that the dark color of the various Indigo ones comes from the Galapagos Islands. I guess they got that one mixed up with the alleged background of Kumato that was initially said to be the case.

Just sayin', as Bill is wont to say from time to time.

And yes, there was other wrong info sprinkled around as well.

Carolyn, who with great trepidation suggests we form a committee of folks with various expertises and hire out to certain seed companies as in subcontracting. Why not? I was talking with Glenn Drowns yesterday and one thing led to another and finially we thought it would be a great idea to write a book about various scandals/misadventures/enemies made/situations gone bad in the tomato world and other areas. It was rapid fire and I was laughing so hard I didn't write any of them down, but who the heck would publish it since one does have to name names, ya know.

Wi-sunflower · December 26, 2013

Hey, in this day and computer age, anyone can "self publish".

While there are firms that will actually print books to order,(Vanity Press, I think they call them) it would be just as easy to do a computer book as in a DOC or PDF downloadable file or even a CD.

I know Carolyn would have a good built in customer base right here at TV for a "book # 2" as a file.

Carol

Poma_adoris · December 26, 2013

Carol, second that idea! I would definitely buy a second tomato book by Dr. Carolyn (I managed to get a copy of the first). And a horticultural escapade book would be good, too. For instance, there was a Callery pear tree that was patented and propagated by an Ohio nursery. Only problem was, they didn't own the original tree, as they were supposed to. So, someone else propagated from the same tree and gave it another name.

There are lots of instances of patents being granted for ineligible plants because the Plant Patent Office was hopelessly understaffed - as in, one person reviewed all of them back in the 80's. The only criterion he used was whether or not there was an identical-appearing cultivar of that kind already patented. I'm talking about actual plant patents, not Plant Variety Protection.

This year is the first time I've noticed "Utility Patents" being noted in seed catalogs for things like certain lettuce seeds. I thought maybe they were GMOs, but there was no indication of that. I found an essay by Frank Morton which pretty much gives the history and legal rationale as supported by the courts so far. Very frustrating to know this is happening!
http://www.wildgardenseed.com/articl...mon-vegetables

P.S. Thanks for the replies about the anthocyanin/blue tomato history!

**carolyn137** · December 27, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Hey, in this day and computer age, anyone can "self publish".

While there are firms that will actually print books to order,(Vanity Press, I think they call them) it would be just as easy to do a computer book as in a DOC or PDF downloadable file or even a CD.

I know Carolyn would have a good built in customer base right here at TV for a "book # 2" as a file.

Carol

I don't think you and Poma are really understanding what I was trying to say in my post and it's NOT just about name changing.

Not gossip either, but known facts such as:

A gets seeds from B and sends them to C, as in stealing them

D forces E out of business

F banned from talks for being drunk

General revolts at one or two places and why

OK, some name changes done by some

F is banned from the property of G

H misrepresents varieties

I outright lies

ect.

Get the picture?

And I'd be sued b/c I'd have to use REAL NAMES.

And how many of you would rush to send me money for a lawyer and my defense and how many would visit me in jail if I lost?

Carolyn

remy · December 27, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I don't think you and Pomis are really understanding what I was trying to say in my post and it's NOT just about name changing.

Not gossip either, but known facts such as:

A gets seeds from B and sends them to C, as in stealing them

D forces E out of business

F banned from talks for being drunk

General revolts at one or two places and why

OK, some name changes done by some

F is banned from the property of G

H misrepresents varieties

I outright lies

ect.

Get the picture?

And I'd be sued b/c I'd have to use REAL NAMES.

And how many of you would rush to send me money for a lawyer and my defense and how many would visit me in jail if I lost?

Carolyn

That is too funny!! I know about a few revolts, but others not a clue. Some of these I want to know who they are,

.
Remy

Wi-sunflower · December 28, 2013

Carolyn,

we know you couldn't write THAT book.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh I know an "F".

At another board (not a 'growing' board) there is a person who regularly shows up drunk and picks fights with everyone. He has been banned repeatedly, yet keeps rejoining under a new name. He is easy to spot after just a couple of posts as his style never changes when he's drunk. I actually have a file with many of his aliases.

The reason I have the file is because I was the 1 he picked on in 1 of his incarnations. And it got pretty nasty til I contacted the owner of that board.

Carol

neoguy · December 28, 2013

Carolyn,

Not an attempt to digress from OP thread, but you could write a fictional book... "The names have been changed to protect the innocent."

December 25, 2013	#46
MikeInCypress Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Cypress, TX Posts: 963	Thanks Tania for clearing this up. It's Michael Pollan for me from now on. MikeInCypress __________________ "Growing older, not up"

December 25, 2013	#48
Poma_adoris Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Columbus Ohio USA Posts: 25	As some may know, there is an International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (the ICNCP for short) which is published by the International Society for Horticultural Science, and which is supposed to be updated every 10 years after a symposium among participating horticultural taxonomists, plant breeders and other interested parties to discuss and agree on changes. LOL Taxonomists agreeing? Not likely. The most recent is the 8th edition from 2009. Find information at http://www.ishs.org/sci/icracpco.htm and also http://www.ishs.org/sci/icra.htm. There are guidelines in the code about naming nearly any kind of cultivated variety, whether seed or clonally propagated. However, following the rules is not mandatory since ISHS has no legal standing to enforce them. The main concern is trying to prevent duplication of names, the general thought being that it's worse to have two different cultivars being offered by the same name than to have one cultivar being offered under multiple names - although of course that is not desirable either. Multiplication of names became a real problem when applying "trademark" names became common. Then a plant often has the cultivar name cited in addition to the trademarked name, which one is not free to use without license. This is a ploy to avoid the limitations of plant patents, which expire after 20 years, but if the buyers only recognize a plant by the trademark name, they won't realize the real name is the cultivar name and that the plant can be propagated and sold freely under that name. An example of a trademark name in tomatoes would be the "Goliath" designation. As several of you have observed, those who are looking to profit will choose names as best suits their purpose, and then it becomes caveat emptor, which is not new in horticulture at all, is it? Last edited by Poma_adoris; December 25, 2013 at 10:48 PM. Reason: typos

December 25, 2013	#49
Poma_adoris Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Columbus Ohio USA Posts: 25	P.S. I am having trouble following what seem to be insinuations of misbehavior on the part of someone in using the OSU blue tomato germplasm, because I don't know who is being implicated. One question I have always had: do any of these lines come from the snapdragon anthocyanin gene transfer? I have been told no, and I am inclined to suppose not, since the owners of that kind of technology usually guard it closely. I grew 'Indigo Apple' last year from Brad Gates @Wild Boar. They didn't crack, and ripened beautifully. So beautiful I couldn't bring myself to eat the few I had, because I planted them too late. Next year ... Last edited by Poma_adoris; December 25, 2013 at 10:55 PM.

December 26, 2013	#50
remy Buffalo-Niagara Tomato TasteFest™ Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Z6 WNY Posts: 2,354	Poma_adoris, You are right hat it has happened for some time. Many of us know of places that always changed names to make it seem like they have something better or different. It is unfortunate that it seems to be happening with such a new variety and with such a well known company. Plant names often switch when coming into the USA. I know it happens frequently with roses. A rose that might be popular in say England with a certain name will get a name change for here. Importers obviously think that a rose won't sell with certain names. I don't like it, but at least that name change is consistent throughout the US so you don't think you are buy something different from one vendor or another. Remy __________________ "I wake to sleep and take my waking slow" -Theodore Roethke Yes, we have a great party for WNY/Ontario tomato growers every year on Grand Island! Owner of The Sample Seed Shop

December 26, 2013	#52
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	It should be noted here that the OSU Blue that "escaped" reportedly via a lab employee may not be the exact same line as P20, which was made available by OSU tomato breeding program administrators to certain "tomato breeders" subject to a seed transfer agreement. I say that because the often seen designation "OSU Blue/P20" leaves one with the impression that OSU Blue and P20 are one in the same breeding line, and I was told by Dr. Myers that is not exactly the case. Last edited by travis; December 26, 2013 at 02:12 PM.

December 26, 2013	#53
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	I got a few more catalogs in the mail today, and speaking of changing names, one of them now calls the radish variety long known as French Breakfast as D'Avignon. Another catalog says that the dark color of the various Indigo ones comes from the Galapagos Islands. I guess they got that one mixed up with the alleged background of Kumato that was initially said to be the case. Just sayin', as Bill is wont to say from time to time. And yes, there was other wrong info sprinkled around as well. Carolyn, who with great trepidation suggests we form a committee of folks with various expertises and hire out to certain seed companies as in subcontracting. Why not? I was talking with Glenn Drowns yesterday and one thing led to another and finially we thought it would be a great idea to write a book about various scandals/misadventures/enemies made/situations gone bad in the tomato world and other areas. It was rapid fire and I was laughing so hard I didn't write any of them down, but who the heck would publish it since one does have to name names, ya know. __________________ Carolyn

December 26, 2013	#54
Wi-sunflower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 2,591	Hey, in this day and computer age, anyone can "self publish". While there are firms that will actually print books to order,(Vanity Press, I think they call them) it would be just as easy to do a computer book as in a DOC or PDF downloadable file or even a CD. I know Carolyn would have a good built in customer base right here at TV for a "book # 2" as a file. Carol

December 28, 2013	#58
Wi-sunflower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 2,591	Carolyn, we know you couldn't write THAT book. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh I know an "F". At another board (not a 'growing' board) there is a person who regularly shows up drunk and picks fights with everyone. He has been banned repeatedly, yet keeps rejoining under a new name. He is easy to spot after just a couple of posts as his style never changes when he's drunk. I actually have a file with many of his aliases. The reason I have the file is because I was the 1 he picked on in 1 of his incarnations. And it got pretty nasty til I contacted the owner of that board. Carol

December 28, 2013	#59
neoguy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2007 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 610	Carolyn, Not an attempt to digress from OP thread, but you could write a fictional book... "The names have been changed to protect the innocent."