Who says heirlooms aren't productive?

[tam91]

I haven't had very many hybrids that can compete with a good heirloom for taste imo. Exception being Sungold, which I do grow. Brandy Boy was pretty good, but I haven't grown it lately.

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by tam91

I haven't had very many hybrids that can compete with a good heirloom for taste imo. Exception being Sungold, which I do grow. Brandy Boy was pretty good, but I haven't grown it lately.

I find a good tasting hybrid competes very favourably with a good tasting heirloom.

[tam91]

I guess everyone's tastes differ.

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by tam91

I guess everyone's tastes differ.

Totally agree. General statements like "heirlooms taste better than hybrids" are impossible to prove/disprove, hence they perpetuate and form the basis of folklore.

[tam91]

Well, every person I have met personally that has tried heirlooms marvels at how much better the taste is. I have not heard of any taste testings where, in general, hybrids beat heirlooms. So I personally still believe that heirlooms usually taste better.

But goodness, I just started this thread because I was happy and excited at the fruit set my heirlooms had produced. Never even mentioned hybrids, so I'm not sure why it has evolved into this apparent debate. If someone prefers hybrids, by all means, they should grow them.

[SharonRossy]

Not to create additional debate, but the hybrids I'm growing this year momotaro and mountain magic and mountain spring has certainly not out produced or better resistant than my heirlooms. I will always grow a couple of hybrids like SunSugar or sun gold F1 but Brandy boy was terrible last year. Personally I'm happier with my heirlooms. JMO!
Ella, I hate to be ignorant but what do you use pickled tomatoes for?
Sharon

[SharonRossy]

Ok forget that last line, I'm referring to another post. lol! Senior moment!
Sharon

[joseph]

Personally, I find all tomatoes to be about equally distasteful, whether they are heirlooms or hybrids. I am more likely to spit out an heirloom than I am a boring least-common-denominator commercial hybrid.

[joseph]

A bland boring commercial hybrid that is in-hand today will always be favored in my climate over a marvelous tasting heirloom that won't ripen until 6 weeks after the fall frosts start.

[CamuMahubah]

Originally Posted by joseph

A bland boring commercial hybrid that is in-hand today will always be favored in my climate over a marvelous tasting heirloom that won't ripen until 6 weeks after the fall frosts start.

I agree..but IF AND ONLY IF that bland boring commercial variety was grown with care and not grown with pesticides and gassed before I eat said tomato.

I really like what you are doing Joseph but I've watched you say this and that about hybrids and heirlooms lately. And I see your points.

But...

You are using Jagodka or whatever as a basis. Is that variety a hybrid?

Your F2's are doing crazy things.

As expected...

And as a landracer you are eventually gonna see a variety that is stable and works in your environment and that will be the OP that your children/neighbors/people in your area raise for market/home/hobby.

[CamuMahubah]

Originally Posted by joseph

Personally, I find all tomatoes to be about equally distasteful, whether they are heirlooms or hybrids. I am more likely to spit out an heirloom than I am a boring least-common-denominator commercial hybrid.

Then your landrace will be bred for market. For early ripening in your climate. For hardiness in your climate. Not for flavor.

Might as well dehybridize Bush Early Girl.

You might look into Dirty Girl. An op version of Early Girl.

You could get someone, perhaps someone in your family that cares about flavor to taste the tomatoes.

What good is a variety that meets your area's standards if it is as bland as something they could buy cheaper at SafeWay?

An as bland version grown without pesticides?

SafeWay already has "organic heirlooms" for 5 bucks a pound.

I guess you better beat that price if you don't care about flavor.

[tam91]

Well I suppose if you dislike the taste of tomatoes, if heirlooms had more taste, you would dislike them even more.

[joseph]

I grew some tomatoes that rooted in a nearby city's sewage sludge. They were as firm and bland as any commercial shipper could have desired. I certainly didn't save seed from any of them. I have my taste standards, even if I think tomatoes taste horrid. Some at least have nice textures and less objectionable tastes and smells. It's unfortunate that my tomatoes can't even travel to market successfully without substantial losses. But even if it would help with transporting to market, I am not going to incorporate the cardboardy trait into my tomatoes.

I suppose that my main complaint about heirloom tomatoes is the awe and reverence that they seem to be given: That they carry the aura of a religious experience. I think that it is undeserved. There are some heirlooms that work well for some growers in some climates. In my estimation, a variety is not an heirloom unless it was in existence before I was born, and if a variety has been around for that many generations then it is highly inbred, and I really dislike that type of inbreeding.

I hope that I never develop an OP tomato... (If the definition of OP includes inbreeding for enough generations to achieve "stability").

The prices I ask for tomatoes are always much less than supermarket prices... For example, I ask no more than 57 cents per pound for canning tomatoes. There are plenty of traits besides taste that are required for a good farmer's market tomato. It has to ripen during the growing season. The fruits need to be free from catfacing and blossom end rot. The plants have to be productive and resistant to molds, slimes, insects, mice, blights, etc... They have to look good. When faced with a choice between growing a plant that produces 30 pounds of average tasting tomatoes or 4 pounds of fantastic tasting tomatoes I choose to grow the more productive plant. I might grow the fantastic tasting tomato as a pollen donor to a breeding project, but I wouldn't grow it for profit. Canning tomatoes don't have to taste good, since most of the flavoring comes from added ingredients like garlic, peppers, celery, and spices.

I tend to grow non-hybrids, non-heirlooms, and non-OP tomatoes...

Originally Posted by tam91

Well I suppose if you dislike the taste of tomatoes, if heirlooms had more taste, you would dislike them even more.

Exactly!!!

[tam91]

Originally Posted by joseph

I suppose that my main complaint about heirloom tomatoes is the awe and reverence that they seem to be given: That they carry the aura of a religious experience. I think that it is undeserved. There are some heirlooms that work well for some growers in some climates. In my estimation, a variety is not an heirloom unless it was in existence before I was born, and if a variety has been around for that many generations then it is highly inbred, and I really dislike that type of inbreeding.

I hope that I never develop an OP tomato... (If the definition of OP includes inbreeding for enough generations to achieve "stability").

To be honest though - if you don't like the taste of tomatoes, I don't think you would be able to appreciate the experience of heirlooms (and good OP tomatoes) like we tomato lovers can. I grew hybrids for some years, and ate them at farmers markets, and when I first encountered heirlooms, it was practically a religious experience. I'm not sure tomatoes get inbred like animals do, perhaps Carolyn or someone can comment on that.

Originally Posted by joseph

I tend to grow non-hybrids, non-heirlooms, and non-OP tomatoes...

Ummm - what does that leave?

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by tam91

To be honest though - if you don't like the taste of tomatoes, I don't think you would be able to appreciate the experience of heirlooms (and good OP tomatoes) like we tomato lovers can. I grew hybrids for some years, and ate them at farmers markets, and when I first encountered heirlooms, it was practically a religious experience. I'm not sure tomatoes get inbred like animals do, perhaps Carolyn or someone can comment on that.



Ummm - what does that leave?

First off Tracy I would like to commend you on your tomatoes.
I have also been reading the posts in this thread and sitting on my hands.

I wish people wouldn't use the term inbreeding for plants.
It is more commonly used but not always used for higher forms of animals including people.
Plants and animals are two different things.

And I agree on your last statement too.

Really, then what are they growing?

Some of the comments about open pollinated and heirloom tomatoes I have read and heard come out of nothing but conjecture.
An opinion based on a very limited amount of information and knowledge.

Here is a link to tomatoes some hybrid some OP that have a early maturation date some even into the 50 day level.
http://www.tomatogrowers.com/Early-Season/products/2/

This list doesn't even come close to all of the varieties out there.

If a person is going to develop a tomato to grow in their environment then at some time in the future they are going to have to stop encouraging cross pollination.

Worth